[SPOILERS] Minfillia' Fate in 3.2

[Nalien]

If she really wants us to Hear, Feel, Think for ourselves, I don't see a positive benefit to ruling stuff out.

I don't see where you're getting that I'm ruling out the option of finding the dreaded truth... All I'm saying is that I'm incredibly doubtful that the truth is going to change a great deal...

We exist to stop bad things and help people. Ascians seemingly exist to create bad things and kill people. This cosmic feud between Hydaelyn and Zodiark is, to me, inconsequential. Essentially the same as the Bevelle/Zanarkand War, the finer details of it do not matter, it is simply something to set the stage and explain the current conflict. The one where the shadowy organization that facilitates the existence of a giant hate-whale ruins peoples lives and actively undermines the truth...

The Ascians and their Primal schemes are essentially an amalgamation of Sin, Yunalesca, and the Teachings of Yevon.

Do I need to remind you that Word of God states that pretty much everything we know of history was written down in the Sixth Astral Era (barring the occasional Allagan archive)?

And why do you think that is, exactly? We're not willfully ignorant. We're ignorant because a certain group routinely facilitates mass destruction that leaves us ignorant...

[Morningstar1337]

And why do you think that is, exactly? We're not willfully ignorant. We're ignorant because a certain group routinely facilitates mass destruction that leaves us ignorant...

You have to admit, He has a point, The censorship by mass destruction Library of Alexandria style would prove to be a beneficial side effect to the Ascians. "History is Written by the Winners" and all that.

Why yes, this post is directed to everyone but the guy I quoted, why do you ask? :P

[Fenral]

The Ascians and their Primal schemes are essentially an amalgamation of Sin, Yunalesca, and the Teachings of Yevon.

You're practically begging me for an essay explaining why that isn't even remotely valid as a comparison. Short version is, by the time they made it to Zanarkand at the end of the pilgrimage, Yunalesca was perfectly willing to disclose everything. The spanner in the works wasn't the truth, it was Tidus (a.k.a. "you"), someone who grew up outside of Spira's culture of guilt and sacrifice. The one that had led High Summoners for the past millennium to make the call to sacrifice themselves, and one of their guardians, to perform the Final Summoning, in spite of knowing that Sin would eventually come back. It was only by questioning the system that another path was found.

[Kallera]

...

Why yes, this post is directed to everyone but the guy I quoted, why do you ask? :P

I'm not even sure what this argument is about anymore. Urianger (and likely in one situation, us) are with an Ascian, doing something other than defy and kill them. should we butcher him for treason or something? the effort of genociding a functionally immortal race is likely going to be considerably difficult, and still doesn't change the the fact that killing them is an act that is raising questions as to what it would actually solve in the cosmic balance of things. If hydelyn had all of the answers, she certainly would not be losing multiple times, something else is being missed. and thematically it would be very strange if, given the storylines and antagonists even in this game alone, that answer is unquestioning obedience.

[Powe]

To catch you up, Hydaelyn Assimilated Minfillia and then Minfillia went POOF when Hydaelyn used up her Aether to deliver a vauge message that didn't help is a damn bit and only put me that much closer to joining The Garlean Empire's Genocide Plan.

when I said I didn't read through the whole thing I meant the thread, also it's not very vauge just a tad.

[Nalien]

I'm not even sure what this argument is about anymore. Urianger (and likely in one situation, us) are with an Ascian, doing something other than defy and kill them. should we butcher him for treason or something?

That's a nice strawman you've got there... I want to execute Urianger for conspiring with Ascians now? Christ...

No, I'm fairly confident Urianger is sensible enough to take everything Elidibus says with a veritable mountain of salt. I know I certainly am/will given, you know, everything.

It was only by questioning the system that another path was found.

Yes, lets question the current system. You know, the one where the Ascians cause mass destruction and death, essentially ensuring our ignorance in the grand scheme of things. Lets question why Elidibus is seemingly working together with us to stop the Warring Triad, when we know the Ascians gave Allag the means to contain them, and it's a pretty safe bet that they also had them summoned in the first place.

Like I've said repeatably now, Hydaelyn hasn't told us anything we didn't already know. Stop the people who are seemingly responsible for all major conflicts and suffering? "No Hydaelyn, I need to know why I have to stop them!"

It's nonsense... We're stopping them because they're dead set on creating strife and suffering... Do I want to know why they're doing that? Absolutely. Like I've said repeatably though, I cannot see their justification being remotely convincing... There is no reasoning they can throw at me that is going to justify their methodology, so I'll continue stopping them from ruining peoples days. Am I doing anything in the grand scheme of things? Of course not. Fighting against the futility of existence is a fairly common theme in this series...

[Powe]

The whole thing with how hydalyne is supposedly sacrificing pawns, this kinda of reminds me of a book series I love. The gods in that world are called " the wild magic" the only thing they really cared about is balance between everything. To much light they would recede from the main events of the world, to much darkness they give their power to individuals that would act on their will. They could be asked to sacrifice them selfs, but not commanded, the Mage " wild Mage " is always given the choice to either accept the price or find another way. This imo is just like hydalyne but with a scaled more ajusted towards the light, not balance

[CyrilLucifer]

Meanwhile, in Urianger's hide-y hole in the Sands:

On occasion the truth may issue from the mouths of fiends and foes. Our knowledge is dwarfed by our ignorance.
Actually, Fiends. Look at those Fiend lyrics. Oh my.

Can I go on an unrelated tangent? I'm going on an unrelated tangent.

Urianger is vicious.

Even completely discounting the fact that he potentially got the Auracite from Elidibus, what's the first thing he asks you to do with it?
Avenge Moenbryda.
But, uh, you already did. Nabriales is dead, Igeyorhm and Lahabrea had absolutely nothing to do with Nabriales being an idiot and getting himself killed.

It's one thing to ask you to kill them for the 'greater good' or some such, but he's just all spite.

[Fenral]

Yes, lets question the current system. You know, the one where the Ascians cause mass destruction and death, essentially ensuring our ignorance in the grand scheme of things. Lets question why Elidibus is seemingly working together with us to stop the Warring Triad, when we know the Ascians gave Allag the means to contain them, and it's a pretty safe bet that they also had them summoned in the first place.

#AsciansAreNotAHivemind2016

The current system is: Ascians cause death and destruction, Hydaelyn tells us to stop them (presumably at any cost). If you wanted your Yevon analogy, that's it right there. Every calamity has had its Archons and Warriors of Light, so our role in the struggle is not new, in the grand scheme of things.

The Ascians are not some hidden evil lurking in the shadows, they've been after us since level 15. Yu Yevon wasn't even some straw evil either: he created the Spiral of Death to ensure there was never another Machina War. If our Spiral of Death is the Astral/Umbral cycle, Zodiark and his followers aren't collectively Yu Yevon, they're Sin. If what the Word said is true, technically Hydaelyn is Yu Yevon, but there's still a chance that she's living in a completely different analogy as Martel, begging us to save the Yggdrassil without realizing the extremes we'll go to, or that Dhaos is only at war with humanity because they keep killing the World Tree before he can get a seed to take back to Derris Kharlan.

[Nalien]

Actually, Fiends. Look at those Fiend lyrics. Oh my.

That's one of the reasons I think "the truth" is simply that Hydaelyn allows death; "She is the hand that rocks the cradle, The wind that breaks the bough and leaves you to die!"

I see this whole thing as; Pre-split, nothing died, but nothing lived either. Post-split, death became a concept. Something the Ascians take issue with. The potential meaning of Mor Dhona in Dragonspeak and Answers/Dragonsong lyrics just throw more fuel to that fire.

#AsciansAreNotAHivemind2016

Did I imply they are?

I'm simply saying Elidibus is going to have to be held accountable for the actions of the rest of his group if he intends to coerce me...

The Ascians are not some hidden evil lurking in the shadows, they've been after us since level 15.

Really? I don't even know how to respond to that... I think I'm done here... Do you seriously not remember what Lahabrea set about doing 15-50? He lurked in the shadows, following us and encouraging us to build our Blessing, all so he could bring the Hammer of Darkness down upon the Shield of Light. The repercussions of which we've now witnessed...

They certainly lurk in the shadows less for us, now that we're seemingly a threat, but we still have them coercing Pope Thordan and who knows what else... Christ... You're telling me they don't lurk in the shadows when all we've seen from Elidibus since his introduction is various shadowy meetings? Seriously?