Dark Knight changes needed

[Jamillion]

These aren't good changes, I'm sure there are way more qualified people than myself to give more details and scenarios but here's the gist. Drk isn't hurting for DPS more than any other tank is, Drks main issue has nothing to do with its contribution to raid DPS. Also, with the tank damage nerfs no one is factoring tank damage into their DPS checks as much as they did previously since tanks have to focus on mechanics and staying alive nowadays.

[NFaelivrin]

PLD needed the change to Shield Oath because it losses the most DPS from its tank stance for single targets. It still does. Losing the autoattack bonus from Sword Oath itself is huge.

DRK's problems are largely 1) Power Slash combo sucks and needs to be used more often outside tank stance now (PLD shares this problem). 2) Close to zero utility as an off-tank (PLD sorts of shares this problem as well).

[Ultear_Milkovich]

massive things.

Here s what i suggest:

- carve and spit potency is now 1050.
- DA/SE now returns 50% of your total HP while in Grit.
- AP scales from armor defense (1 armor defense = 0.75 AP)
- Dark Knight only.

On a more serious note none of these changes you propose are actually needed.

I could only see something revolving around Reprisal not being used as OT, such as

- "Scourge: if not under the effect of Grit, each tick has a 5% possibilty to proc reprisal".
5% or 2% or whatever depending on the DPS balance.

Same thing than BLMs thundercloud. Would give some debuff flavour to our job as OT without breaking the balance. slight DPS increase as well. Good DRKs will be able to catch the proc on the fly: nice for the gameplay. Also i see a lot of DRKs not using scourge so this could be a nice incentive.

[Blitzace]

OP is honestly one of the funniest guys i've came across on the forums in a while.

The comment about the apples/oranges, 10/10 would read again and again.
*Grabs popcorn* *Slams hammer*

CONTINUE!

[TouchandFeel]

You, sir, are simply amazing. I'd hate to send you shopping for oranges, because you'd bring back apples.

Please, he would come back empty handed after arguing with the cashier that his apples are oranges.

It appears his argument is not bearing fruit as it is obvious that those changes would not bring pear-ity to the tank classes.

Let's keep the fruit puns coming people.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Here s what i suggest:

- carve and spit potency is now 1050.
- DA/SE now returns 50% of your total HP while in Grit.
- AP scales from armor defense (1 armor defense = 0.75 AP)
- Dark Knight only.

On a more serious note none of these changes you propose are actually needed.

I could only see something revolving around Reprisal not being used as OT, such as

- "Scourge: if not under the effect of Grit, each tick has a 5% possibilty to proc reprisal".
5% or 2% or whatever depending on the DPS balance.

Same thing than BLMs thundercloud. Would give some debuff flavour to our job as OT without breaking the balance. slight DPS increase as well. Good DRKs will be able to catch the proc on the fly: nice for the gameplay. Also i see a lot of DRKs not using scourge so this could be a nice incentive.

If I had my way i'd redesign Dark Knight to be more like Shadowknight's/Necromancer's from Everquest and be completely DOT/Lifetap based and have their own flavor, literally surviving through lifetaps and damage over time abilites mostly.

However with the way the developers do their updates, I can only suggest small little changes like the ones on the first page.

Making Grit 15% from 20% makes sense, it gives DRKs a little help in the DPS Department and secures their future, they were NOT OP like Warriors were before. It also makes sense because they did it for Paladin, in my opinion tanks dps should not be designed around something like this, its a total bummer.

Making Darkside 15% whilst in Grit is SUPER minor, a literal 2% difference.

Making Darkarts 2/3 mana on the other hand, is a huge buff. However, I find myself just ignoring Dark Arts on several abilities because it costs so much, so you use it for SE/Dark Mind mostly.

That is why I made this heated seeded discussion.

[fm_fenrir]

Making Grit 15% from 20% makes sense, it gives DRKs a little help in the DPS Department and secures their future, they were NOT OP like Warriors were before. It also makes sense because they did it for Paladin, in my opinion tanks dps should not be designed around something like this, its a total bummer.

Except that with Darkside up, as intended, DRK only loses 8% damage while being in Grit. Lowering the penalty to 15% changes it to 3%, which gives DRK a massive DPS advantage while staying in tank stance.

PLD loses 15% baseline for shield oath, and another 15% for losing Sword Oath's bonus.

[Jpec07]

If I had my way i'd redesign Dark Knight to be more like Shadowknight's/Necromancer's from Everquest and be completely DOT/Lifetap based and have their own flavor, literally surviving through lifetaps and damage over time abilites mostly.

However with the way the developers do their updates, I can only suggest small little changes like the ones on the first page.

Then go play Everquest and stop trying to make this game something it isn't.

Making Grit 15% from 20% makes sense, it gives DRKs a little help in the DPS Department and secures their future, they were NOT OP like Warriors were before. It also makes sense because they did it for Paladin, in my opinion tanks dps should not be designed around something like this, its a total bummer.

Except DRK doesn't need any help in the DPS department. They're still naturally ahead of PLD by a very fair bit, both in MT DPS and OT DPS. PLD's change was because they were 15%-25% behind DRK in MT DPS (and 20%-30% behind WAR), and now they're 5%-10% back from DRK, if even that.

Making Darkside 15% whilst in Grit is SUPER minor, a literal 2% difference.

And unnecessary, because you can have Darkside and Grit on at the same time, thereby (mostly) negating the DPS penalty of Grit. Neither other tank has that, which is largely why DRK has the highest theoretical MT DPS between the three.

Making Darkarts 2/3 mana on the other hand, is a huge buff. However, I find myself just ignoring Dark Arts on several abilities because it costs so much, so you use it for SE/Dark Mind mostly.

This means you don't know how to play DRK. You're supposed to spend your MP down to a certain point, then play more conservatively to restore it (or take a walk on the dangerous side and drop Grit for BW). Just because you don't know how to manage your resources does not mean the job needs this substantial a buff, especially when it does nothing to address the actual problems with the job. "It's expensive" is not a viable excuse for shooting yourself in the foot and not using Dark Arts. DRK is a job more than any other where knowing the fights and thinking ahead will help you succeed, because you'll be able to plan ahead for each time you'll need to use Dark Arts, and map how much mana you need to save for every instance.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Then go play Everquest and stop trying to make this game something it isn't.



Except DRK doesn't need any help in the DPS department. They're still naturally ahead of PLD by a very fair bit, both in MT DPS and OT DPS. PLD's change was because they were 15%-25% behind DRK in MT DPS (and 20%-30% behind WAR), and now they're 5%-10% back from DRK, if even that.



And unnecessary, because you can have Darkside and Grit on at the same time, thereby (mostly) negating the DPS penalty of Grit. Neither other tank has that, which is largely why DRK has the highest theoretical MT DPS between the three.



This means you don't know how to play DRK. You're supposed to spend your MP down to a certain point, then play more conservatively to restore it (or take a walk on the dangerous side and drop Grit for BW). Just because you don't know how to manage your resources does not mean the job needs this substantial a buff, especially when it does nothing to address the actual problems with the job. "It's expensive" is not a viable excuse for shooting yourself in the foot and not using Dark Arts. DRK is a job more than any other where knowing the fights and thinking ahead will help you succeed, because you'll be able to plan ahead for each time you'll need to use Dark Arts, and map how much mana you need to save for every instance.

Well, honestly I made the comparison because that is exactly what the other poster suggested. A similar ability to what Shadowknights get. So, if you have an issue with that can you please take it up with the developers? They have abilities and similar things to other games, Everquest was one of the first MMOs made.

Where are they listed to be way ahead? I keep hearing this, but nobody here has linked an up to date parse. Last expansion they were a little far off, but if I do some math that is much closer then before, Paladins got a huge buff. They were not "30% behind" that comment is ridiculous. The posters who used to link things like that did it in extreme circumstances too, where one side was in like a super AOE fight.

Also, there is no way to "negate" a base penalty. No matter how many %'s of damage you add, you will always do 4/5th the damage you did before.

Here is how math works.

Take any base you have, then add damage modifiers, then it says "20% of all of that" will be cut from your damage.

I remember before the shield changes they were about 120 off. Which wasn't much, then they buffed their damage by adding a proc to their rotations, and now they buffed it AGAIN this patch.

Base: 100+15x0.2=damage lost.

It doesn't matter how much you add, you will NEVER negate a penalty at the end. So far though, the only comparison of parses i've seen, are from VERY different fights where one was WITHOUT Grit and the other was in Shield Oath, and the parses from that were not even FAR off...

[Jpec07]

Hence why I said "mostly."

The problems you perceive in DRK have been proven to not exist, by myself and others, both here and in other threads. Now that you are resorting to invective and attacking my "bad math" (that wasn't even there), and are not even addressing legitimate arguments against the reason for your position, you have effectively lost both the debate and my interest.

Good luck tanking without Dark Arts. You're gonna need it.