Dark Knight changes needed

[TouchandFeel]

Yes, but remember you can use it when you need to.

Except if you are holding on to it you are losing overall uptime which just hurts your total dps per encounter or at best lowers it slightly over all and focuses it during necessary parts, i.e. burst-dps which both DRK and WAR are capable of in their own way with their own mechanics. Either way it would result in a dps loss by not using it on CD.

That 0.935 multiplier which still results in less actual dps overall is in a situation in which the PLD is using it immediately as it becomes available every time. Using it less than that lowers the multiplier.

Seriously, please think more about these things before retorting.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Hot DAMN. PLDs, pack your bags and transfer to Balmung, FoF has 100% uptime there.

Balmung PLD Mecca confirmed.

Actually, I added that because you forgot to count it in.

Well, as the other guy said (if thats correct) 0.935 vs DRKs 0.92. However since its a cooldown I would say Paladins can get more from it because they can use it when they switch to Sword Oath for even more damage then switch back to tank stance.

Except if you are holding on to it you are losing overall uptime which just hurts your total dps per encounter or at best lowers it slightly over all and focuses it during necessary parts, i.e. burst-dps which both DRK and WAR are capable of in their own way with their own mechanics. Either way it would result in a dps loss by not using it on CD.

Seriously, please think more about these things before retorting.

No, bad boy. You have several cooldowns you can rotate to get the most benefit of it every 90 seconds if you time it properly switching to sword oath and unloading your damage. Be realistic and think about this on REAL FIGHTS.

YOUR NOT ALWAYS STANDING AND FACE TANKING THE MONSTER, some times you have to dodge and do mechanics too.


However, if your sitting infront of a training dummy and hitting it. It is probably better.

And doing the math, it is 93.5%!

[Ultimatecalibur]

Wow am I late to this one... Just wanna throw some math out there.

DRK: Grit + Darkside = 0.8 * 1.15 = 0.92x
WAR: Defiance + Maim = 0.75 * 1.2 = 0.9x
PLD: Shield Oath = 0.85x

So actually DRK has the most optimal tank dps combination.
They also have higher potencies on their overall combos, and have Scourge to level out Goring Blade somewhat. Maybe not entirely with the Goring buff, but mostly. Much like WAR has higher potency on several of its attacks, Fracture, and better dps CDs.
Basically the only major dps difference between the 3 atm is that WAR has 2 DPS CD's, PLD has 1, and DRK has DA, which can be very situational at times.

Your math is wrong, but not as wrong as the person saying Dark Knight only looses 8%.

Darkside is always up for a properly played Dark Knight and the same is true for Warrior with Maim and SE so those multipliers do not effect the difference between tank stance dps and DpS stance dps. The difference are determined by what is only available in that.

Dark Knights have a flat 20% penalty while in Grit but can use Blood Weapon when out of Grit for what is around at 2.8% increase in dps. This means that Dark Knights deal ~28.5% more damage in "DpS stance" than they do in Tank stance.

Paladins now have a 15% penalty when in Shield Oath, but gain about 22 potency per second (about 15% increase in damage) from the extra 50 potency auto-attack granted by Sword Oath. This means that Paladins deal ~35% more damage in Sword oath than they do in Shield Oath.

Warriors are a bit more complicated. They use completely different offensive cooldown rotations in Defiance and Deliverance and the Wrath/Abandon consumers have different effective potencies. Baseline proper usage of Unchained make the Defiance penalty ~79% and Deliverance grants 5% increase and between a 0 and 10% boost to crit rate. Just going off the % damage changes Warrior deals 40% more damage in Deliverance than it does in Defiance.

That said, A8, first part of the fight, whole lotta magic damage, and a magic mit debuff too!
Sounds kind of familiar doesnt it?

Onslaughter uses a bunch of blockable/parryable attacks also.

[Lyth]

A multiplier of 0.92 (92%) is mathematically the same thing as an 8% damage output reduction. It's based off of comparing the tanks in defensive stance vs. being stanceless, purely for the sake of making a tooltip comparison between the three. Once you start trying to compare offensive vs. defensive stances in addition to cooldowns, you're better off just getting results from a target dummy, because the results will depend on how your rotation/procs/mp play out. Also, given that Sword Oath's dps increase is dependent on weapon delay, I'm not sure how you'd get a good representation of its contribution across all gearsets, unless there's only a minimal variation in the stat across all possible weapon choices.

On a side note, both A8N and Sephirot Ex have phases of the fight with purely magical tankbusters and purely physical tankbusters. In addition, A8N seems to encourage collaboration on these (read: likely to be enforced on a higher difficulty setting), either by timed swaps in the first part, or by a stack and split approach in the last part. What advantage you gain in one phase, you lose in another. I wonder if this is part of a broader design decision to balance out the tanks.

[Ultimatecalibur]

A multiplier of 0.92 (92%) is mathematically the same thing as an 8% damage output reduction. It's based off of comparing the tanks in defensive stance vs. being stanceless, purely for the sake of making a tooltip comparison between the three. Once you start trying to compare offensive vs. defensive stances in addition to cooldowns, you're better off just getting results from a target dummy, because the results will depend on how your rotation/procs/mp play out.

Your 92% is a naive misanalysis. Using similar bad statistics I could say that the Paladin does 93.5% (85% * 110% from FoF) in Shield Oath. To get a proper analysis you need to be aware of what changes and how numbers are changed by those changes.

Also, given that Sword Oath's dps increase is dependent on weapon delay, I'm not sure how you'd get a good representation of its contribution across all gearsets, unless there's only a minimal variation in the stat across all possible weapon choices.

The delay variation on Paladin weapons is very small. At level 60 there are 5 Swords with 2.08 delays (24.04 potency per second), 1 with a 2.16 delays (23.15 potency per second), and 13 with 2.24 delays (22.3 potency per second). All of the Swords added post 3.1 have 2.24 delays.

[Lyth]

FoF isn't a buff with a 100% uptime, however. Once you start factoring in cooldowns for the jobs, it can become significantly more complex, especially on ones that don't adhere to a simple rotation or that actually have additional resources to manage. The dps increase from Blood Weapon, for example, is not just due to the attack speed. It comes from having more MP and being able to perform more DA moves. In addition, there are also a lot of fight specific variables which influence whether you can use a cooldown at a given moment or not. Maim and Darkside generally are not influenced by this.

You can try to account for as many variables as you like, but eventually there comes a level of complexity that you just can't account for and you have to just test it out on a target dummy. Not that I don't appreciate the attempt.

Ultimately, on a back-of-the-envelope sense, though, I'm sure that most people can see why the adjustment to Shield Oath was reasonable and why an equivalent adjustment to Grit isn't all that necessary.

[Ultimatecalibur]

FoF isn't a buff with a 100% uptime, however. Once you start factoring in cooldowns for the jobs, it can become significantly more complex, especially on ones that don't adhere to a simple rotation or that actually have additional resources to manage. The dps increase from Blood Weapon, for example, is not just due to the attack speed. It comes from having more MP and being able to perform more DA moves. In addition, there are also a lot of fight specific variables which influence whether you can use a cooldown at a given moment or not. Maim and Darkside generally are not influenced by this.

Wrong, which is why the the Dark Knight 92% and Paladin 93.5% damage reductions are both misanalyses using the same bad statistics. Darkside is a flat 1.15 multiplier to all Dark Knight damage and Fight or Flight is an average multiplier of 1.1 to Paladin damage and both are available in both DpS and Tank modes. While FoF can be played with to get slightly more out of it (You can actually lose 39 potency if you pop FoF right before GB rather than before either the FB or RB leading into the GB), it is still at its heart a damage multiplier so effects the Paladin's average damage in a similar (though not identical) way as Darkside and Maim effect Dark Knight and Warrior damage.


Saying Dark Knight has an 8% damage drop while in Grit is wrong. The damage drop in Grit is ~20% as the Dark Knight is going from 115% (Darkside only) to 92% (Darkside + Grit).

You can try to account for as many variables as you like, but eventually there comes a level of complexity that you just can't account for and you have to just test it out on a target dummy. Not that I don't appreciate the attempt.

Which is why I said the Warrior's dps gap between stances was much more complicated. Dark Knight and Paladin are both rather simple to get ballparks for. The numbers are not perfect but do give you a better idea of what the relative differences are between Tank stance/DpS stance outputs with out having to calculate the 3 minute rotations of both.

Ultimately, on a back-of-the-envelope sense, though, I'm sure that most people can see why the adjustment to Shield Oath was reasonable and why an equivalent adjustment to Grit isn't all that necessary.

I agree the end result is acceptable, but I'd rather cases of misanalysis be corrected rather than spread. (If they do spread you tend to get people like Nektulos)

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Wrong, which is why the the Dark Knight 92% and Paladin 93.5% damage reductions are both misanalyses using the same bad statistics. Darkside is a flat 1.15 multiplier to all Dark Knight damage and Fight or Flight is an average multiplier of 1.1 to Paladin damage and both are available in both DpS and Tank modes. While FoF can be played with to get slightly more out of it (You can actually lose 39 potency if you pop FoF right before GB rather than before either the FB or RB leading into the GB), it is still at its heart a damage multiplier so effects the Paladin's average damage in a similar (though not identical) way as Darkside and Maim effect Dark Knight and Warrior damage.


Saying Dark Knight has an 8% damage drop while in Grit is wrong. The damage drop in Grit is ~20% as the Dark Knight is going from 115% (Darkside only) to 92% (Darkside + Grit).


Which is why I said the Warrior's dps gap between stances was much more complicated. Dark Knight and Paladin are both rather simple to get ballparks for. The numbers are not perfect but do give you a better idea of what the relative differences are between Tank stance/DpS stance outputs with out having to calculate the 3 minute rotations of both.



I agree the end result is acceptable, but I'd rather cases of misanalysis be corrected rather than spread. (If they do spread you tend to get people like Nektulos)

93.5% + Sword Oath (which not many people have put into percents yet. Although its super complicated due to weapon delay+all that Jaz.

I am not saying its right, but its closer then it should be.

[Galgarion]

So does Grit's damage reduction remain 20% at all times even with Dark Side active? I always thought having DS up lowered the penalty.

[shao32]

So does Grit's damage reduction remain 20% at all times even with Dark Side active? I always thought having DS up lowered the penalty.

and thats the result of threats like this started for persons how want to change things not only 1 time, all whe make mistakes for miss information, is again again and AGAIN and don't have any idea or just are trolling for make discord betwen us.

grit reduce damage incoming in 20% and dealt -20%, with darkside (aument damage dealt 15%) the total result is 20% damage reduction and -5% damage dealt (i don't know the exact formula but is close to -5%), ignore this threat already ppl.