Why should warriors get a free pass to all savage content?

[Jpec07]

All of the nerfs proposed to WAR's gameplay so far are utter garbage, that's why we are against it. The only nerf I could get behind is a slight nerf in skill potencies (like fell cleave).
Because the gameplay of war is so good right now, any changes proposed to it (so far) are just destroying the balance for the sake of it. How would you like to lose your "nope I'm cheating the game for 10 seconds" Hallowed Ground to make it fairer for WARs who have to deal with Holmgang ? because if you remove WAR's gameplay, we should as well remove PLD's gameplay, amirite ?

How does cutting DPS (through potency snips, like you said), nerfing Storm's Path, and removing the slashing debuff in any way relate to Holmgang/Hallowed Ground/Living Dead?

There are three things that Warriors have over other tanks:

• Overpowerful DPS
• Storm's Path debuff (-10% eDPS)
• Storm's Eye debuff (-10% enemy slashing resistance)

Of the three, only Storm's Path has any sort of competition from the other tanks (RoH = -10% eStr; Delerium = -10% eInt). But because of how it affects all types of damage, and because it stacks with those debuffs, and because it's more effective than either of them (and more effective alone than both combined), it is basically mandatory for raid composition.

So if they target these three areas with strategic nerfs, and balanced it carefully, Warriors would no longer be essential for composition.

You also fail to recognize the difference between a job being essential for progression and a job being preferred. In a situation where it is essential, no group can succeed without it. If preferred, a group will simply have to operate in a different manner that will make their fights very slightly longer/more difficult. The biggest example of this that I can think is A1S-A4S, where almost no group could succeed in early months without a Warrior in the party; in this case, they were essential. The nerfs that WAR needs should be aimed at making it so that they are no longer essential for group composition to succeed. I suggest nerfs, because WAR simply brings too much to the table right now to be considered for non-inclusion. You are literally shooting yourself in the foot right now if you don't bring a WAR to a raid, and that is not okay.

EDIT: Proof I needed to change my wording slightly: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3582394

[Kuwagami]

The biggest example of this that I can think is A1S-A4S, where no group could succeed in early months without a Warrior in the party; in this case, they were essential.

say what mate ?

(still looking for a AS4 early clear but I'm sure I'll find one) (edit : here goes )

No class is essential. Ever. Sheeps just must learn how not to jump on the band waggons. And learn that world first race doesn't mean anything when it comes to regular dungeons, or even regular raiding. No PLD would ever be able to find a group anymore if that was the case

[Jpec07]

Stuff

say what mate ?

(still looking for a AS4 early clear but I'm sure I'll find one) (edit : here goes )

No class is essential. Ever. Sheeps just must learn how not to jump on the band waggons. And learn that world first race doesn't mean anything when it comes to regular dungeons, or even regular raiding. No PLD would ever be able to find a group anymore if that was the case

Well I'll be damned. I may be a snarky, obstinate bastard sometimes, but at least I can recognize when I've been proven wrong (usually). I was formulating my own opinion based on the numerous times in these forums that I've seen people saying how raid comps without WAR were nowhere to be found in the early savage clears.

I still think WAR needs a nerf, but the situation is very evidently not as dire as I'd been lead to believe.

EDIT: I just realized circumstantial evidence is circumstantial, and that this basically does not change the trend. I don't play WAR, and I only started raiding after I got over a 200 average iLvl, so the massive body of evidence suggests that anyone who played a WAR was basically a shoe-in for a raid is more than enough basis for me to say that there is definitely a problem, whether in how the community perceives WAR, or in how much more performant WAR actually is.

EDIT 2: Also, the fourth example you found is from mid October. That hardly counts as "early months."

[Kuwagami]

snip"

o/
To be honest, I was getting desperate to find a AS4 kill and got lucky with this one. It truly is an exception, and AS4 remains done at 99% with a war, at least on video. My point was just that the WAR is NOT compulsory, and it is proven

As for the AS4 video date, it's just one month after world first so I counted it as early clear.
@your edit : of course the masses will take a war. Because they see that that top raiders take mostly wars and then mimick it without understanding why, or even without the need of it because they utterly overgear the content. But thing is, PLD was horrible for savage. Not useless (you never are), but the low dps when facing the absurd dps checks of AS3/AS4 was so horrible that almost every normal group switched to DRK + WAR because it was easier. Then months later, even if the gear is now good enough to bring PLDs back in without being unnecessary harder in the dps checks for the masses, people still don't, because they still don't think that they can do without WAR. Doesn't mean that they're right though.


@Duelle :
What the masses do is never an indication of what the truth is. It just shows a part of the truth seen through tainted glasses. Best examble I can think of is in Dofus where most classes were deemed bad for a very long time by the community vecause there were 2 god tier classes. It took around 5 years to my knowledge for people to accept that alternative classes/builds were not bad, and nowadays everyone and their mother is running one of these alternative builds.

[Syzygian]

say what mate ?

Inspiring. You know those PLDs/DRKs were unspeakable badasses.

[Duelle]

say what mate ?

(still looking for a AS4 early clear but I'm sure I'll find one) (edit : here goes)

This is giving me flashbacks to that blood elf ret that kept posting his parses near the end of TBC to try to convince the collective 6,000,000 other people that played WoW that ret was capable of decent numbers and should be brought to sunwell as DPS. The joke was on him because it took Nihilum (the top guild in the world at the time) bringing one ret to Brutallus (and that was only because of Sanctity Aura and Judgment refresh via Crusader Strike) for raiding guilds to care about what was a joke spec to the other 6,000,000 people that played WoW.

In short, you're trying to prop your arguments on the exception to the rule rather than looking into why the masses have not taken to dropping a WAR for the other two tanks in a raid comp. And "lulz becuz t3hr sh3epz" isn't a valid argument. Trends form because of how design nudges and shape player behavior.

[Alphras]

The biggest example of this that I can think is A1S-A4S, where no group could succeed in early months without a Warrior in the party; in this case, they were essential.

Really? This is getting ridiculous. I mean WAR was really strong this raid tier and everyone knows that, so why make up stuff like this?

I haven't read the responses to this yet and I'm sure it's been refuted. I just also found it funny that the PLDs were perfectly fine in the months leading up to HW when everyone was positive that DRK would be competing for WAR's spot since everyone assumed they'd both be DPS tanks.

Generalization never helped anyone.