There are already two dps-tank jobs, please don't make Paladin the third.

[Violette]

I think what it boils down to is that UNPRECENDENTED MITIGATION isn't all that useful most of the time. Now that we've got three tanks, I doubt SE wants to incorporate mechanics into a raid that require a PLD to be tanking them, so it boils down to what else the tanks can bring to the table - so it really feels like PLD is overspecialising in something they don't need.

Except Paladin's don't have unprecedented mitigation. They're 100% better at physical over time, but against tank busters...they're just? (like JUUUUUST) better than Dark Knights and Warriors (who have low cooldown mitigation OUT THE ASS).

If Shelltron blocked magic, if Bulwark upped block to 90%, if Cover also reduced damage by 25%...yeah maybe. But unfortunately, Paladin's previous untouched defensive capabilities were mostly copy/pasted onto Dark Knight, while Dark Knight got a lot more low cooldown toys to play with. But apart from that, you are correct. Paladins are specialized in something that was not needed. Physical negation.

[Shurrikhan]

Except that, as established, boss auto-attacks can consume Sheltron and you're SOL at that point. Timed blocks work in games that require precise gameplay (see: Dark Souls, Dragon's Dogma, the Soul Calibur games). FFXIV is far from that and a different approach to that ability should be considered.

I'd be willing to start by reducing the duration of Sheltron to 5s and making it block all incoming attacks and see how that goes. This way you can go for that illusion of timed blocking while not making the ability overpowered nor making it easy for it to go to waste.

I'd honestly just prefer to see changes in terms of AAs no longer being able to go off simultaneously or near-simultaneously with tank busters. Beyond that, Shelltron is easy enough to time. I've never lost a Shelltron meant for Thordan's cleave or heel on an AA, or even prior to a rotorswipe or Caduceus cleave in minsynced T4/T1. For its animation and the niche it seems intended to fill, an extended block would make a lot more sense, and would certainly give it more significance in AoE pulls, but I don't think it's exactly necessary either. First block + 1.5 seconds thereafter would be more than enough time. I'd be more inclined to say that it and/or Bulwark's inability to affect magic damage taken whatsoever are larger points of evidence of a broken toolkit.

[SwordCoheir]

Well: Silence was been important for cob/scob.
Stun is important in A2S/A4S.
Blind.....kinda works? Not really. And yeah, pacify is trashify.
Don't forget STR down!

Yeah, but discounting STR down (which is only 50/50 anyways), most of the time we get to use only one of our enfeebles in spans of 3-6 months for only one occurrence. It's hard to argue PLD's strengths when they are perpetually hindered at every step.

[Violette]

Yeah, but discounting STR down (which is only 50/50 anyways), most of the time we get to use only one of our enfeebles in spans of 3-6 months for only one occurrence. It's hard to argue PLD's strengths when they are perpetually hindered at every step.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I was trying to mock the paladin over that. To some degree, but I also get annoyed at people discounting Paladin's strengths when trying to emphasis their extreme weaknesses. It's not that their strengths make up for it, it's just all the poor sods have got going for them.

[Duelle]

Thing is, as we can see with Heavenly Heel, it's wonderful against PHYSICAL tank busters with a cast.
It'd eat Flatten for breakfast. It's more victim of circumstance than a bad ability.

At least in my own experiences, auto attacks still process while a boss is midcast and preparing high damage attacks, so the element that devalues Sheltron is there. If the intent of the ability is to guarantee a block because of a big incoming hit, turning it into guaranteed blocking for 5s basically meets that intent while giving some leeway.

For its animation and the niche it seems intended to fill, an extended block would make a lot more sense, and would certainly give it more significance in AoE pulls, but I don't think it's exactly necessary either. First block + 1.5 seconds thereafter would be more than enough time. I'd be more inclined to say that it and/or Bulwark's inability to affect magic damage taken whatsoever are larger points of evidence of a broken toolkit.

5 seconds isn't that much time, to be honest. Uptime would still be pretty low considering it'd still have a 30s cooldown.

The devs have already said something to the effect of never allowing shields to block/mitigate magic, so that particular point is not worth pursuing at the moment.

[Shurrikhan]

At least in my own experiences, auto attacks still process while a boss is midcast and preparing high damage attacks, so the element that devalues Sheltron is there. If the intent of the ability is to guarantee a block because of a big incoming hit, turning it into guaranteed blocking for 5s basically meets that intent while giving some leeway.

5 seconds isn't that much time, to be honest. Uptime would still be pretty low considering it'd still have a 30s cooldown.

Right, I just find that this fact makes zero sense. The animations literally stop, but the AAs continue, or can be unleashed immediately before the actual tank-buster. It looks and feels terrible. Rather than using this to promote a fix to Shelltron itself, I wish they'd just get that shit out of the game. The game already feels plentifully unreactive without clipping or muting mob animations. That said, I also still think that 5 seconds is far longer than is needed to fulfill that intent. With 5 seconds, I could block literally every mob in front of me while moving towards gather on a sprint pull, or have an extra Inner Beast at no cost (30% every 30 seconds vs. 20% every 19-23 seconds +/- Infuriate).

Edit: Just got through a Ex rl Moratorium where I spent what felt like one in every 9 GCDs self-healing. He cast exactly 9 single-target heals in a 3 1/2 minute fight, only two of them on me leaving me at 2k hp to continue spamming Boil. I don't think I've ever loved Shelltron's MP generation so much. Sadly, if Shelltron was made more useful or reliable in these other contexts, we might well lose that MP generation. That'd be fine for OT position, or if, as PLDs cry out in terror, Riot Blade's MP generation were increased to compensate, but I've gotten through so much on the virtue of Clemency as timing Shelltron (as finicky as it is) well that I'm really afraid of any balancing nerfs.

[therpgfanatic]

Paladin rotation at 60 is just weird.

-Three part combo needed to apply DoT.

-Three part combo needed to maintain threat, but using it reduces DPS contribution of the PLD and doesn't help clear DPS checks.

-Three part combo needed if you want to deal max DPS, but will lose threat advantage if you use it continually.

Then on top of that;

-Only spammable AoE (Flash) does no damage.

-Divine Veil requires someone to heal you AND its party effect requires everyone to stack together. Utterly impractical in most situations applying a protective barrier would be useful.

-Shelltron doesn't block magic attacks, including certain physical special attacks you would assume it should (like cyclops swings).

-Sword Oath boosts auto-attack damage in a game whose meta revolves around moving constantly to dodge AoEs, making it a pretty 'meh' ability even when soloing leveling quests. Doesn't help much at all in those situations the tank needs to help kill orbs and crap to prevent a wipe, as it contributes nothing to a DPS burst.

-Spirits Within is weaker if the PLD isn't at full health. Why? Why would you place such a mechanic on a tank whose job it is to take constant damage?

PLD single target DPS might be fine on test dummy NPCs, but the sheer impracticality of all the stars aligning to the degree PLD needs during an actual raid is a whole different matter. Depending on the boss and how much AoE fields I need to dodge, there is a ton of wasted effort trying to do things like apply Savage Blade's DoT.


*If I was to redo PLD I would have made Royal Authority a finisher that can be instantly triggered at the end of a Rage of Halone combo. It would make a lot more sense and fit easier in the rotations.

Also Flash would actually deal damage, Divine Veil would not require shield triggering on heal and would apply its buff to all party members regardless of distance. Spirits Within would lose its damage tied to current HP mechanic, and Sword Oath would add a flat % bonus to all skill damage to assist PLD in those times they need to burst. Shelltron would block the next attack completely.

Finally, Goring Blade would trigger it's DoT without needing to use Riot Blade and Fast Blade.

[SpookyGhost]

-Three part combo needed to apply DoT.

They could, theoretically, take away the 3 part combo bit but they'd need to reduce it's potency as Goring Blade is actually kinda ridiculous.

-Three part combo needed to maintain threat, but using it reduces DPS contribution of the PLD and doesn't help clear DPS checks.

DRK is actually the only one who sees a DPS gain from using their damage reduction combo. The main problem, though, is that PLD's damage reduction combo is also their threat combo, thus requiring them to dip more often (unless you have the WAR open and not BB his life away as OT). You could put the STR down on Royal Authority and put something else on RoH I suppose.

-Three part combo needed if you want to deal max DPS, but will lose threat advantage if you use it continually.

DRK has a similar problem, though their enmity generation is high enough that they don't need to worry about it. I think changing around the enmity modifiers or doing what I suggested above would solve this fairly easily. PLD's main issue is how often it needs to use RoH compared to DRK to maintain threat, on top of ShO's various hindrances.

-Only spammable AoE (Flash) does no damage.

This is often complained about, and I sort of agree but not in the sense that most do. I think Flash should still deal no damage by default, but that there should be some sort of interaction with another CD that allows it to do damage. Having a shield available at all times (on top of Bulwark as a CD) means that if Flash did damage you'd have a tank that shrugs off multiple physical hits via rolls, who can also reduce them via CDs, and also deal moderate damage while doing so. Which I, personally, think would be fine if it was CD-related and not a default thing.

-Divine Veil requires someone to heal you AND its party effect requires everyone to stack together. Utterly impractical in most situations applying a protective barrier would be useful.

DV's requirement of a heal does feel like it's just tacked on, though in any situation where DV is applicable you'd be getting healed anyway. It's intended to be used for big boss AOEs and stuff, not just a 10% shield on everybody you can randomly throw up. I think the heal thing can be removed as long as nothing else is changed.

-Shelltron doesn't block magic attacks, including certain physical special attacks you would assume it should (like cyclops swings).

-29%+ block on either damage types with a 30s CD seems a bit ridiculous to me. Think Sheltron is pretty undervalued despite being kinda insanely strong - understandable, though, since it can be eaten by AAs and is generally kinda clunky. I think, rather than doing the whole magic damage thing, it should just give you 100% block chance for X seconds.

-Sword Oath boosts auto-attack damage in a game whose meta revolves around moving constantly to dodge AoEs, making it a pretty 'meh' ability even when soloing leveling quests. Doesn't help much at all in those situations the tank needs to help kill orbs and crap to prevent a wipe, as it contributes nothing to a DPS burst.

If you have to dodge an AOE and can't auto attack then that's a personal problem or you're not strafing. SwO is really strong and is why, as an OT, PLD is pretty competitive. I think touching SwO isn't really a thing they should do, though there are probably ways they could go about it.

-Spirits Within is weaker if the PLD isn't at full health. Why? Why would you place such a mechanic on a tank whose job it is to take constant damage?

This always did strike me as weird, and I think removing the health requirement would give PLD a small boost in ShO DPS. Wouldn't mind if they got rid of that weird requirement tbh.

*If I was to redo PLD I would have made Royal Authority a finisher that can be instantly triggered at the end of a Rage of Halone combo.

Finally, Goring Blade would trigger it's DoT without needing to use Riot Blade and Fast Blade.

So you'd put PLD back to using 1 combo forever? Dunno if that's such a good idea.

[therpgfanatic]

Except that, as established, boss auto-attacks can consume Sheltron and you're SOL at that point. Timed blocks work in games that require precise gameplay (see: Dark Souls, Dragon's Dogma, the Soul Calibur games). FFXIV is far from that and a different approach to that ability should be considered.

I know they will never do it, but wouldn't it be awesome if PLD had the Dragon's Dogma Mystic Knight ability Magic Cannon? We could summon it then everyone in the party could then auto-attack the orb to rain death on the battlefield.

If you have to dodge an AOE and can't auto attack then that's a personal problem or you're not strafing. SwO is really strong and is why, as an OT, PLD is pretty competitive. I think touching SwO isn't really a thing they should do, though there are probably ways they could go about it.

Think harder about what I am referring to here. I dodge AoE just fine. What I can't control is when auto-attack triggers. No one can.

"Burst damage" and "auto-attack" cannot be part of the same sentence. Sword Oath contributes nothing to burst damage, which is a key mechanic in many fights these days where even the tank needs to burst down either an enemy or a floating orb in order to prevent the boss from casting the party wipe spell. Paladins are the weakest tank when it comes to this, because we cannot burst and Sword Oath and it's effect of adding 50 potency to an auto-attack rather than a flat % increase to all damage is a key candidate for changing to address the burst issue.

I am well familiar with the auto-attack arguments. Ironically Paladins in WoW had a similar mechanic with an aura and people, even other Paladins players made all kinds of ridiculous arguments about how it was superior to improve auto-attack damage than over-all skills. This went on from vanilla to WoTLK expansion. Guess what, the developers finally made the change to allow for burst and almost overnight PLD DPS being weak was never an issue of debate again.

Sword Oath is an impractical skill in a game that requires players -- especially the tank -- to move around constantly. You cannot trigger auto-attack on command, so it can't be easily employed.

So you'd put PLD back to using 1 combo forever? Dunno if that's such a good idea.

I don't have any problem with one combo for damage. PLDs got enough to deal with since our mitigation is largely built around popping cooldowns, and fights that make the tank run all over the map mean we sometimes have to abandon the combos before we finish them anyway. It's more annoying than useful to have three combos which all require three GCDs to gain their benefits.

[Seku]

Think Sheltron is pretty undervalued despite being kinda insanely strong - understandable, though, since it can be eaten by AAs and is generally kinda clunky. I think, rather than doing the whole magic damage thing, it should just give you 100% block chance for X seconds

So basically make Sheltron what Bulwark should of been. If their going to do that might as well just fix bulwark and make Sheltron block the next magical hit and allow it to pair with cover, giving chemistry with both war and drk since all of a sudden you've got a OT doing damage and taking tank busters on the side for -30% that can cure itself....giving more reason for the MT to stay in their offensive stance, then re-work awareness to like allow PLD's defensive cool downs that didn't work on cover before to actually work while negating crits....

It's more annoying than useful to have three combos which all require three GCDs to gain their benefits.

No tank gains all their benefits from their combo's at once. Their always giving up something. PLD just can't keep up that DPS due to the fact it's hate is too weak which means they just need to up the hate generation on the RoH combo line or potency on the offensive combos to make up for the lack of PLD being able to use them. That and even if you did this it really wouldn't matter as PLD is still last in party chemistry other than HG through phases, which loses value as a group gains personal knowledge of a fight.