Astrologian impossible to balance as it is

[LegoTechnic]

because only in this one are healers expected (and being able) to push DPS all-the-time that much. there are many people who like this but also many people who want an old-school type healer with more HPS checks and mana-management.

oh, btw, there IS a fundamental problem with the meta.

No, this just isn't true. Where did this idea of it being unique to FFXIV originate? Did no one play World of Warcraft?

We will ignore the 40-man and 24-man raids because in those instances you took only as many healers as needed, ever. And yes, that meant for some encounters you would take 7-8 healers, but if you only needed 5 then you would only take 5 healers and give the rest of the slots to DPS. Since there originally wasn't job-switching there was a lot of alternates and back-ups in your roster, and plenty of player rotation to keep things fair, and while this changed with "dual-speccing" in Lich King and reduced the need of a larger player roster the basic idea of having excess healers replaced with DPS (in this case respecced) didn't change. But let's not look at the larger raids and look at the 10-mans, and what we see is pretty much the same things as FFXIV.

Does anyone remember Zul'Aman bear runs, where your 10-man had to complete the instance in 45 minutes or less? For bosses and trash pulls that allowed it you had better believe one of the healers was dotting and DPSing as they were able. And good healers? If they could throw in some Smites or Shadow Word: Pain then they would. Tree druids may have been locked out from DPS by nature of their form (pun intended), and shamans had the unfortunate role of literally one-button spamming chain heal over and over ad infinim for at least one entire expansion, but if the ability to DPS was there then you took it, and that was honestly expected.

The only difference is that in FFXIV cleric stance "locks" you into a mode for 10 seconds, as this mechanic isn't really present in other games. Because it nerfs your heals you have to make the conscious decision of popping it on and off, and then you have to commit to that decision for the duration, and that can be an extra amount of stress as the fight doesn't wait for you to finish. It's understandable if you don't like the cleric stance cooldown, but it is implemented because Square-Enix wants healer DPS to incur some kind of cost (I guess?). Any damage a healer does is extra to cover for the failings of your DPS, just as it was in WoW and other MMOs, because that is what healers do--they carry the raid. Whether you're recovering someone from death, emergency healing a mechanic goof, or just making up for that DRG with Brink of Death's lessened DPS you are one of the pillars of the group and the more others can depend on you the better you are at your role.

And don't think this is unfair, as it's also the nature of the job. As a healer you do not have to focus on any rotation to speak of as all your abilities are reactive and "pop when needed" excluding one or two bonus proc effects, and this gives them a freedom other classes don't enjoy. As a DPS you often get complicated strings of abilities to repeat and usually quite a few buffs timers and proc abilities to micro manage. If you're a BLM you have Enochian, BRD/MCH's a ton of procs, and melee have to deal with positioning requirements. Healers don't get any of that, even if they do DPS, but instead play an entirely different game of reacting to health damage and proactively casting to mitigate mechanics. While this can be incredibly difficult in progression and ESPECIALLY if something goes wrong (because something always goes wrong), it also makes it much easier for healers to handle both mechanics and the occasional role-change during less taxing moments. You don't ask a healer to stone/miasma the liquid gaol in A3S because they're obviously busy, but since damage is low during discoid why not let them eat exploding yellow orbs?

Make the most out of your time, and keep active. You will not always be allowed to DPS, and sometimes you will have to focus purely on healing if for no other reason than mana requirements, and this is PERFECTLY FINE. Don't commit to Cleric Stance if you don't have at least that 10 second grace period. But if you do, and you KNOW you do, then by all means at least consider it. There is never a downside to helping your raid.

[Sidra]

because only in this one are healers expected (and being able) to push DPS all-the-time that much. there are many people who like this but also many people who want an old-school type healer with more HPS checks and mana-management.

oh, btw, there IS a fundamental problem with the meta.

That is an opinion, not a fact. Personally, about 1/3 of the skills on a healer are DPS related, and I think it's awesome that so often they make healers use their whole kit to be successful. I think it would be less fun to play an encounter where all of the dps related skills go to waste. Would I mind some diversity where some encounters of much higher healing requirements? Absolutely not. But I can't agree with the idea that the current meta is broken. It's a lot of fun, and I know a lot of healers who agree. The nice thing about playing a healer is that unlike a lot of other classes with rotations, you literally get to make a decision every GCD with what you should cast. Having DPS spells among those options in your decision tree makes it more engaging, not less.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

think it would be less fun to play an encounter where all of the dps related skills go to waste.

What are you doing? You're about to summon healers-shouldn't-dps-cultists!

[Galdous]

You cannot speak of my point without adding in my entire statement made during the time. Taking snippets for index changes the entire shift of my original statement. It was in response to someone calling BS for using an example defined by the constraint of people's minds of what they define something. The fight is still considered the high end at of this moment and just because the healer is 15 I level stronger then when they was learning the fight 99.99% of the playerbase with equal gear still cannot perform that well. I was speaking if people can pull examples that only 2% or less of the entire gaming playerbase can use as a basis for their argument which seems to be done in regards of performance abilities of both dps and healers often then that video is still valid.

[LegoTechnic]

You cannot speak of my point without adding in my entire statement made during the time. Taking snippets for index changes the entire shift of my original statement. It was in response to someone calling BS for using an example defined by the constraint of people's minds of what they define something. The fight is still considered the high end at of this moment and just because the healer is 15 I level stronger then when they was learning the fight 99.99% of the playerbase with equal gear still cannot perform that well. I was speaking if people can pull examples that only 2% or less of the entire gaming playerbase can use as a basis for their argument which seems to be done in regards of performance abilities of both dps and healers often then that video is still valid.

It's actually less that the healer was 15 ilvls higher but more that the entire group was. The increase in both HP for surviving AoE mechanics and overall DPS for beating the 2nd Liquid Gaol is absolutely integral for success in single heal A3S. This is actually the most important reason why this method is even viable.

Additionally you may note that there have still not been any SCH single-heal clears of A3S due to the frequent AoEs and SCH's limiting cooldowns on Indomitibility and Emergency Tactics.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

You cannot speak of my point without adding in my entire statement made during the time. Taking snippets for index changes the entire shift of my original statement. It was in response to someone calling BS for using an example defined by the constraint of people's minds of what they define something. The fight is still considered the high end at of this moment and just because the healer is 15 I level stronger then when they was learning the fight 99.99% of the playerbase with equal gear still cannot perform that well. I was speaking if people can pull examples that only 2% or less of the entire gaming playerbase can use as a basis for their argument which seems to be done in regards of performance abilities of both dps and healers often then that video is still valid.

Well, no. Because the discussion went like:

I'm hoping Alex midas gives healers less time to dps.

I'm hoping Alex midas gives healers less time to dps.

I'm not sure I follow you here. Have you healed A3S or A4S? Do you actually know what you're asking for?

I'm not sure I follow you here. Have you healed A3S or A4S? Do you actually know what you're asking for?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iALJrcwI58s

If the encounter can be solo healed then I believe that was the point being made. Feels like having two healers in the raid scenario is a waste of the healers strength if they are pushing the scholar to dps primarily.

Whatever came after that was beyond the topic at hand as it shifted to you trying to defend your ego of being called a gullible fool*. Now there's this thing about data and deviation. Sure, you want as much data included as possible and that particular solo heal scenario is part of it. But you can't make conclusions based on one outlier. Because if you were, you should look at those Titan EX/Garuda EX solo videos too and nothing could be cleared any more by any group except for the 0.1% best of the best players. So back to what LegoTechnic mentioned:

I'm not sure I follow you here. Have you healed A3S or A4S? Do you actually know what you're asking for?

And I have not done As3/4

If you haven't done it and you've found ONE video that showed an extremely overgeared group solo heal something you haven't done yet, why are you taking it for granted? This is pretty much in line with the "if google was a guy" joke.


*The way I interpret this particular sentence:

Why do people still tout this bullshit argument?

[Galdous]

I am not arguing for either. I was only giving my two bits to the topic at hand. And I have not done As3/4 because of my job and work schedule but when I did raid back in July and our group was on as1-as2 we was having the scholar dps about 80% of the time back then as well despite not being in pure farm mode or fully decked out in gear. *shrug* You spoke about healing for As3 and I found a video that showed it being 1 person healed. My apologies if you only want middle of the pack average raiders to be accepted examples and not proof it can be done despite it is still considered the high end raid of FF 14 at the moment..

But yet you leave out that statement I made. I was merely stating that if the scholar is able to divulge time to dpsing for 80% of an encounter for half of the hardest raids then the strength of the healers was in question. And if I was to actually go find the astrologian that solo healed that to somehow support my side of the discussion would that magically make me right in your books? No I have not healed As3/As4. I never said that the healing was not hectic in 3/4 nor did I disagree with you Lego because I said I agree with you which you seem to leave out. What I said was the video exsist that shows it was accomplished after you stated do you know how hard it is to heal As3/4? I am oddly spending 5 posts wondering why someone is being defended for calling my initial posts as BS because only 1% the raid community can accomplish this feat. Why people are trying to argue something that I agree with it being a challenge for 99.99% of the playerbase I do not know.

If we want to go down that route what gives you the right to slander my opinion because I have not met your magical criteria? It is my opinion and I have already shown it only takes one healer to beat As3/As4. And on the side of whether or not the healer overgeared the fight is pointless when you can gear up outside of the raid off Esoteric gear and Void ark alone. If you had only the ability to hit 210 gear from As1-4 alone then that would be valid. But you could stay outside of As the entire experience then go in after you hit 205+ item level.

If you want to quote me then quote this next sentence. I agree that healing requirements in As3/As4 is heavily required. What I disagree on is it is somehow stupid to use that example when it still has been handled. And that google joke is not even an accurate depiction of what we are discussing. What does a joke about majority research vs minority research have to do with a video of proof that a fight that people say requires two strong healers being needed when it was shown 1 person was capable of? The same ratio is about the same for those who have seen As3/4 from those who have not seen it.

Well, no. Because the discussion went like:






Whatever came after that was beyond the topic at hand as it shifted to you trying to defend your ego of being called a gullible fool*. Now there's this thing about data and deviation. Sure, you want as much data included as possible and that particular solo heal scenario is part of it. But you can't make conclusions based on one outlier. Because if you were, you should look at those Titan EX/Garuda EX solo videos too and nothing could be cleared any more by any group except for the 0.1% best of the best players. So back to what LegoTechnic mentioned:



If you haven't done it and you've found ONE video that showed an extremely overgeared group solo heal something you haven't done yet, why are you taking it for granted? This is pretty much in line with the "if google was a guy" joke.


*The way I interpret this particular sentence:

But you are fond of analogies that does not even make sense in the context of the topic you respond with.

[Ghishlain]

@Gladous

I think most people understand the point of the original argument was that you and Vlady desire higher HPS requirements in a fight. You're entitled to your opinion.

However, using a singular case that is an outlier in the entire raiding community as evidence that the current Meta only needs one healer is faulty logic. Yes the raiding community is small in general but taking one very niche and specific example and citing it as indicative of the entire healer meta is illogical.

So I agree, the Autism example that Lyrics is fond of using is quite apt in this case. You're more likely to garner more support if you were to argue single tank meta in T8 and T9 era as that was indeed the case and also the optimal composition.

Solo heal meta, base on the way tbisbraid tier is designed, will never come to fruition.

Is there even an A4S solo heal? Would love to see it if it happens before the current raid tier dies.

[Galdous]

@Gladous

I think most people understand the point of the original argument was that you and Vlady desire higher HPS requirements in a fight. You're entitled to your opinion.

However, using a singular case that is an outlier in the entire raiding community as evidence that the current Meta only needs one healer is faulty logic. Yes the raiding community is small in general but taking one very niche and specific example and citing it as indicative of the entire healer meta is illogical.

So I agree, the Autism example that Lyrics is fond of using is quite apt in this case. You're more likely to garner more support if you were to argue single tank meta in T8 and T9 era as that was indeed the case and also the optimal composition.

Solo heal meta, base on the way tbisbraid tier is designed, will never come to fruition.

Is there even an A4S solo heal? Would love to see it if it happens before the current raid tier dies.

Actually I do not share that opinion. I only gave a reply to someone who was trying to understand the point of Vlad's post. I am neither for nor against because healers have tools to accomplish both. Refer to my post where I agreed with lego. I am only defending my post where I was responding to this post.

Why do people still tout this bullshit argument? Just because some extremely highly skilled players are able to solo-heal a difficult fight doesn't mean that there's a fundamental problem with the fight or the meta. People have been doing this forever in MMORPGs, but only in this one have I ever seen people complain so much about it.

That post is what raised my eyebrow. As3 was solo healed and the video shows it so I presented it as a post when someone stated the healing required on As3/As4 is stringent so I did a basic google and just posted that. What I am arguing is why is it bs when it was accomplished by a raid team. You Ghishlain are adding complexity to a very simple post with item levels and coordination when I was only wondering why I cannot use that as a defense. As I said I neither agree nor dis agree that healers should do nothing but healing. Yes I gave an example of a scholar dpsing 80% of the time for the first two raids of Savage but as I will say a third time I do not have an opinion one way of the other if healers should heal more or have time to dps.

It was merely a defensive post with the above said statement. As1-3 was solo healed which is 75% of the entire hardest raid tier currently avaliable. It is silly that people get touchy for showing a video that clearly shows that the astro and white mage can handle all healing duties for most of the hardest raids in the game. So why can I not use that video as an example again is my only question?

[Ghishlain]

@Gladous

Your argument implies that healing requirements are light because content can be solo healed. You are implying that the entire healing meta in the current raid tier is light and then presented evidence that indicated NOT the healing meta but an outlier to the current healing meta.

Out of all the raid groups that exist, I only know of three groups that have shown an A3S solo heal and one other person in my former server that can do it. That's about 4 players in the entire game that has shown they can solo heal A3S (Total players that have the skill level to do this is 32 if you include entire groups).

That's not meta defining.