Astrologian impossible to balance as it is

[_slowpoke_]

Do not be upset because people tout the argument since it is valid..

Uh, it's not. That's my entire point. It's an invalid generalization from a niche group of extremely skilled players to the rest of the raiding population. Less than 1% of all raid groups will be able to do this in the foreseeable future. It's disingenuous and quite frankly complete and utter bullshit to assert that this has any impact on or tells us anything about the balance of the fight or the raiding meta in general.

[Galdous]

I guess from the stats we saw only 6% of the entire population has made it to as3 and as4 so even bringing those raids up also disingenuous?

[FeliAiko]

A solitary video of a highly skilled and geared group players completing a piece of content is not an entire reflection of the raid tier as a whole. It's that same foolish line of thinking that had people declaring how Final Coil was 'too easy', because of how fast Lucrezia cleared it. Not because of how long they themselves took to clear it, based on their own experiences. No, they saw the efforts of an extremely skilled group of players and came to an ignorant conclusion about the whole raid tier.

[Galdous]

A solitary video of a highly skilled and geared group players completing a piece of content is not an entire reflection of the raid tier as a whole. It's that same foolish line of thinking that had people declaring how Final Coil was 'too easy', because of how fast Lucrezia cleared it. Not because of how long they themselves took to clear it, based on their own experiences. No, they saw the efforts of an extremely skilled group of players and came to an ignorant conclusion about the whole raid tier.

But yet the logistics are only secondary to the original reasoning of the counter argument. I believe I only mentioned that because someone stated the healing requirements of As3 and As4 are above what one healer could do. Even if the case of 1 coordinated group out of 100 is shown to be doing it itleast it shows it was accomplished. I do agree that such a small data sample in the entire community of raiders capable of clearing the stages is at most grasping at straws but that is not the reasoning I posted the link to that video. I did so with the inclusion of someone was asking what the point of the poster hoping that the next iteration of Alexander savage give less time for healers to dps.

General consensus is that healers have to help push dps when they are not having to heal so may hap the issue was a stipuation that well healing needs to be ramped up if 3 out of 4 of the hardest raid at of this moment can be solo healed. And as I said 80% of As1-As2 was solo healed by a white mage and astrologian with the scholar as a back up to prevent mishaps of not enough healing puts the scholar in a unique situation as a dps/healer hybrid. If the scholar had to constantly keep Galv bubbles on certain targets instead of letting the white mage handle 80% of the healing chores then perhaps we could conclude that the raid was balanced around 2 healers doing their job. But when one was able to dps for 80% of the time or in the case of that one group let the entire encounter be solo healed then it leaves one to wonder if there could not be other mechanics specific for healers to deal with over having to be half a dps and half a healer in raids.

SE gave healers gear that helped with accuracy so it felt they wanted to give healers stronger offensive abilities in the raid encounters which they took away when 3.0 came out. That leaves two camps of healers. Ones that think you should be dealing damage if healing is not required and those who want to only heal in raids. If SE makes moves to penalize healers for using mana to deal damage then that would appease the crowd from the second group. I believe that was the core of the statement made. But once more I say this if using such extreme examples of a few groups who could solo heal AS3 is not relevant then why should even bringing up as3-as4 be relevant when only half of the raid teams have even seen As3. That is possibly roughtly 1% of the entire gaming population so also bringing up your statement of As3-As4 seems irrelevant as well if we are going by the same rules of engagement.

[LegoTechnic]

I don't want to be combative, so I will just state my opinion and where I'm coming from. As someone who has been clearing A3S/A4S every week for months as a SCH I will tell you there is a lot of healing you must do in them, much more so than is required in A1S/A2S. I remember even on our first clears of A1S I was largely just spot heal until double prey mechanic with some AoE heal support, so criticism of the two earlier tiers has some weight, but I will still tell you that a raiding SCH that does not heal is a liability and dead weight to their party. They are given a lot of "flash heal" abilities, indomitibility and emergency tactics particularly, and it is very easy to pop in and out of cleric for these as needed. They can and will save raids.

In later tiers any DPS you can do is a benefit due to the tight DPS checks, but your focus is on healing and DPS is something you squeeze in as best you're able. If you notice a 10-second window then you can throw in your dots, but you are going to want to heal for that next Cascade. A3S and A4S are scripted so finding these windows is easier, but that also means you can fully take advantage of your entire healer toolkit as well. Pop Whispering Dawn before the liquid gaol, and Fey Illumination before the 6-hit Splash+Cascade. Whispering Dawn before the tank and DPS get sucked into Quarantine, and adloquium the MT liberally during 2nd phase carnage lasers so the tank buster doesn't flatten them. Little things like that go a very long way for both healer's time.

Alternatively you are also presented the opinion of someone who hasn't actually worked on A3S/A4S due to real life time issues, which I will certainly not criticize. An MMO is a leisure activity and should be the lowest priority in one's life, and I will never argue against that. However it also means they don't have any practical experience in what they're criticizing, so just keep that in mind when you address their opinion.

Edit: I will also restate that single healing A3S only works because of high VIT totals on gear, most likely 210 or maybe some crafter ACC, and because DPS was high enough to kill the boss before the 2nd liquid Gaol (and this is very important). Cascade hits very hard, and there is no room for error. Most groups working on a clear will not be able to take its damage without some form of shield or mitigation (Virus/Disable work). Higher life totals significantly aid in this.

[Galdous]

Yes but I was presented with a video of 1 healer handling the entire fight. I actually agree with your sentiments considering almost every raid so far at one point has had a white mage or astrologian solo healing after it has achieved farm status. My point is people calling BS on me since it was a feat done by very few people but yet others can pull people who beat As3-As4 for examples when barely more then a few % of the player base has ever beaten those raids. It is a bit hypocritical to try to nullify my statement while also speaking of content only a few % of people have actually seen as well.

But my point does stand. As3 was done by one healer so I feel my original point still stands.

[tjw]

But my point does stand. As3 was done by one healer so I feel my original point still stands.

Only because people are starting to over-gear the floors. You cannot deny that the last two floors are much more healer intensive than AS1 and AS2, especially with specific mechanics healers have to deal with (Digititus, Liquid Gaol, Discoid, Wirbelwind, and the whole Sac strategy of A4S). The solo heal of AS3 is an anomaly. It should NOT be the standard, even in this current timeframe of the first raid. Almost all farming groups still take two healers into the last two floors because of those mechanics. Does it mean that the healers aren't DPSing their hearts out? No, but the DPS opportunities for AS3 and AS4 are far different than those in AS1 and AS2.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

But my point does stand. As3 was done by one healer so I feel my original point still stands.

Exactly what point were you trying to make? Vlady mentioned something about less healer dps windows, which translates into pure and raw hps checks. Locking out even more groups from the harder content, is that your point?

[Tint]

Why do people still tout this bullshit argument? Just because some extremely highly skilled players are able to solo-heal a difficult fight doesn't mean that there's a fundamental problem with the fight or the meta. People have been doing this forever in MMORPGs, but only in this one have I ever seen people complain so much about it.

because only in this one are healers expected (and being able) to push DPS all-the-time that much. there are many people who like this but also many people who want an old-school type healer with more HPS checks and mana-management.

oh, btw, there IS a fundamental problem with the meta.

[Ghishlain]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iALJrcwI58s

If the encounter can be solo healed then I believe that was the point being made. Feels like having two healers in the raid scenario is a waste of the healers strength if they are pushing the scholar to dps primarily.

Just as an FYI, your argument may have more merit if the group in question was doing it at the intended ilvl (whether that may be, we won't know until its put into the DF).

Until it is shown an encounter can be solo healed at ilvl, its difficult to argue that an encounter can be solo healed during progression.