Tanks using their enmity combo while being OT

[Syzygian]

If we want to talk optimal min/max, you have the WAR pull with NIN Shade Walker + early 3x FC (pre-Infuriate + RI @ 1s etc) so that Vengeance ticks hit the boss and WAR is in Deliverance asap.

Could you not also have the WAR do the same thing except OT, Shadewalker the DRK as he pulls out of Grit, and achieve the exact same DPS + Reprisal/Low Blow Procs and a 4x DASE chain thanks to BP+BW at the cost of some Vengeance counterattacks?

Storm's Path being a selling point was news to me up until Heavensward, despite picking it up in 2.0 for a bit. It wasn't even until I started browsing the forums that I noticed people claiming it was the greatest thing ever, and yet I have never found any particular reason to use it in most content, except while leveling 38-49 for it's minor self heal when I saw the healer was having a hard time for whatever reason. Warrior's selling point back then was Inner Beast.

Okay, I apologize, but at this point I have to stop and ask if you even raid.

[SpookyGhost]

Could you not also have the WAR do the same thing except OT, Shadewalker the DRK as he pulls out of Grit, and achieve the exact same DPS + Reprisal/Low Blow Procs and a 4x DASE chain thanks to BP+BW at the cost of some Vengeance counterattacks?

Depends on the fight (mainly if the boss stops attacking for any periods in the opening), but Vengeance is a 15s 50 potency reflect buffed by Berserk, IR, potion (iirc), and crit stacks. Pretty strong, dunno if Reprisal/Low Blow/extra DASE would make up for it, but haven't exactly mapped it out.

As a side note, with a DRK/WAR composition during early progression, it's better to have the DRK pull just to have Reprisal and Path up asap. Usually this is what you start with, and unless the DPS check is suuuuuuper tight you don't really want to start switching roles around.

[Instrumentality]

Depends on the fight (mainly if the boss stops attacking for any periods in the opening), but Vengeance is a 15s 50 potency reflect buffed by Berserk, IR, potion (iirc), and crit stacks. Pretty strong, dunno if Reprisal/Low Blow/extra DASE would make up for it, but haven't exactly mapped it out.

Vengeance return hits can crit? Is that a thing that happens?

[SpookyGhost]

Vengeance return hits can crit? Is that a thing that happens?

I can't imagine they wouldn't be able to, they're 50 potency attacks so they should be subject to crit% like normal attacks, dots, heals, etc.

If for some reason they're not, it's still a 50 potency reflect buffed by Berserk which on its own is pretty dang strong.

[Marz_kid_EST]

I use my BB combo and I rarely rip hate off my MT. Even if I do it's usually an add that doesn't matter, like in A2S.

You're giving an unqualified "don't ever do this" advice and it's not that simple.

Talyaaaa we're gonna discuss this later xD

[Marz_kid_EST]

Read much more of this entire thread than i'd like to admit lol but it was entertaining. This thread should've been titled BB vs SE/RA. OT wars are not going ham with all these BBs without plds/drks using RoH/PS, which is where the overall dps loss is(which has already been brought up in this thread). Look at the numbers. When it comes to enmity generation, it's not all about the damage since the BB multiplier makes RA/SE pale in comparison. Yea plds have a reason to use their enmity combo so that dps loss can be justifiable but for drks, dps loss is all it is. Maybe wars should just mt lol dont know myself about that, haven't bothered to look at the gains vs losing reprisal/lowblow/shieldswipe.

[Marz_kid_EST]

Don't post anything ever again.

Also what are you 5 years old? What's the point of posting if you're just going to bash someone. Maybe they didn't know BB was highest potency combo. Grow up. Don't post anything ever again.

[Iagainsti]

I can't imagine they wouldn't be able to, they're 50 potency attacks so they should be subject to crit% like normal attacks, dots, heals, etc.

If for some reason they're not, it's still a 50 potency reflect buffed by Berserk which on its own is pretty dang strong.

I can confirm Vengeance reflect hits do crit; I play with floating damage texts on and see them constantly.

[Iagainsti]

Nobody's having enmity issues. We are talking about maximising group DPS, you know, the thing you're not doing.
I really wonder how can someone completly miss the point, even after it being repeated over and over for 12 pages. It's kind of impressive and sad at the same time.

I'd like to point out, Canadane is one of the few people on this forum with great common sense and tends to be rather witty, and the OP is about the MT having enmity issues when the OT uses a BB combo, only the hereafter delves into maximizing dps.

#halfright ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[LuceliaUltima]

Vengeance return hits can crit yeah. Noticed it when I saw a crit on my main attack, a crit on my AA, and a 3rd ... weird 501 crit???? Wait what's that? ohh vengeance is up, cool those return attacks can crit.

Regarding the topic, wished to mention an exemple. Been struggling with Thordan Trap Pf's past week, I had a Pld i210 all str, mt, pulled the boss, died, boss came to me, trying to recover, for some reason I lost aggro to the Whm into Defiance and using BB as first intention. "Tanks hold aggro, do your job" ... let's not argue.

Later, after the Whm ate 2 times the same AoE and died we made it to adds, for the approximatly 1000th time, I use provoke/tomahawk on the add, and ... wtf, the add goes to the whm, and the whm get ... rekt. "Tank you scrub can't keep hate on a mob" ... let's not argue #2.

Then what happened here, Pld was standing in SwO after his first RoH combo pull on ShO, his aggro was so low at phase change, when I paid attention, the Whm was like 2 on the enmity list but his bar was totally full, and mine a bit lower.

Who blame, Pld trying to max his dps but maybe a bit too greedy, Whm probly not using SoS, or War losing an add with the copied aggro table from phase1. I don't know, I asked the Pld to let me Mt, and hopefully no more aggro issues.