Tanks using their enmity combo while being OT

[Nyghtmarerobu]

Snip.

People recognize path has its uses, and it should be used liberally. But in content where every bit of DPS matters, good tanks and healers shouldn't need to rely on having path up fulltime. By your logic, yes it should hold true, but in raid/trial encounters, path should only be used when needed, not because the MT can't keep hate.

[AI_wass]

To be fair, the argument there is that Path is reliable damage reduction on hand, when you need it; whereas Reprisal's tricky to force at best.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Reprisal is on the boss more because it's literally more DPS, not because it's mitigation. Reprisal is an off global ability that inflicts 210 potency of damage with no other cost besides needing a parry proc. Of course it's gonna be up more than a move that's a straight DPS loss except for those situations when it can prevent a raid wipe, most often during progression raiding.

Storm's Path being a selling point was news to me up until Heavensward, despite picking it up in 2.0 for a bit. It wasn't even until I started browsing the forums that I noticed people claiming it was the greatest thing ever, and yet I have never found any particular reason to use it in most content, except while leveling 38-49 for it's minor self heal when I saw the healer was having a hard time for whatever reason. Warrior's selling point back then was Inner Beast.

[Fyce]

@instrumentality - Define your statement of an "extra" emnity combo. PLD is not built like DRK, where it can practically ignore that combo for 95%+ of a boss fight. I stated that I use it at most once out of every 3 sets (RoH > Goring > RA) during a physical damage heavy encounter. I use it less on a magic heavy encounter, and never as OT

If you consider the use of RoH at anypoint after the opener as "extra" then, yes your statement is correct.

Each time you use RH (would it be in your opener or anywhere in the fight), the only question you'd have to ask yourself is "why can't I do a RA instead?".
If the answer is:
a)because the WAR OT won't apply SP, so I need to keep RH debuff,
b)because the WAR OT's Butcher's block will generate too much enmity, so I need to generate more,
... then it's a potency loss for the group in either cases, not even accounting the fact that RH debuff is worse than SP.

Same line of thinking applies to "why can't I be in Sword oath right now?". If it's because of BB from the OT WAR, then it's a problem and a great loss for the group.


Of course, if it's not any of these very few and specific cases, then it's probably fine.

[Instrumentality]

Of course, if it's not any of these very few and specific cases, then it's probably fine.

This guy gets it.


Like in my raid I have a planned out set of enmity combos on a boss in each phase and know generally how much threat my healer(s) is going to generate. Any extra I have to use on Paladin OR Dark Knight is a straight damage loss. Warriors doing BB/SE for extended periods of time does more enmity than what I have planned and is a straight raid dps loss to correct for.

And yes I have cleared savage turns on both Paladin and Dark Knight.

[Canadane]

If you're having enmity issues, perhaps you should be the OT and let the warrior MT.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

If you're having enmity issues, perhaps you should be the OT and let the warrior MT.

Careful, you'll hurt someone's pride with lines like that! Less DPS for everyone!

[Fyce]

If you're having enmity issues, perhaps you should be the OT and let the warrior MT.

Nobody's having enmity issues. We are talking about maximising group DPS, you know, the thing you're not doing.
I really wonder how can someone completly miss the point, even after it being repeated over and over for 12 pages. It's kind of impressive and sad at the same time.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Nobody's having enmity issues. We are talking about maximising group DPS, you know, the thing you're not doing.
I really wonder how can someone completly miss the point, even after it being repeated over and over for 12 pages. It's kind of impressive and sad at the same time.

That's exactly the point though. If you DO want to maximize DPS, you have the Warrior MT, and the other tank go OT. THAT is actually maximizing group DPS. A paladin or Dark Knight MT isn't maximum DPS, it's always been Warrior MT for maximum DPS.

This is of course assuming that we're talking DPS stance main tanking. Last I remember, DRK beats out Warrior MT DPS in any situation wherein 100% tank stance up time is required, but only then, last I'd heard.

WAR on the other hand, while having access to unchained every 2 mins, still loses at least 800 potency if you count an average of 4 fell cleaves per min. also you won't use inner beast asap considering it's a defence tool and unchained needs wrath stacks aswell.

These numbers only hold true if you need to stay in tank stance for the entirety of the fight, which only happens when your first concern is 'survivbility and progressing through an encounter'. Typically, DPS only starts entering the equation once the group has already hit enrage, which is the point at which tanks start fine tuning their usage of cooldowns to minimize or even potentially eradicate tank stance up time. During this stage of an encounter, with 100% tank stance uptime, DRK DPS beats out Warrior's due to the mentioned points.

Once it gets down to actually farming the instance, though, Warrior MT DPS beats out everyone else by a rather wide margin. (I believe stated numbers were DRK 8% behind Warrior's total MT DPS?) This happens because a Warrior can much more easily push both hate and DPS then either other tank, rendering it a moot point.

[Starkbeaumont]

stuff

MT DRK doesn't change it's rotation at all, except that you don't have blood weapon (until you end up dropping grit) but gain reprisal and low blow procs in exchange.

WAR on the other hand, while having access to unchained every 2 mins, still loses at least 800 potency if you count an average of 4 fell cleaves per min. also you won't use inner beast asap considering it's a defence tool and unchained needs wrath stacks aswell.

so I really doubt that MT WAR, OT DRK will do more damage than the other way around.
MT WAR, OT PLD is definitely a gain though (for now)