Tanks using their enmity combo while being OT

[Crater]

If you DO want to maximize DPS, you have the Warrior MT, and the other tank go OT. THAT is actually maximizing group DPS. A paladin or Dark Knight MT isn't maximum DPS, it's always been Warrior MT for maximum DPS.

Flatly incorrect.

DRK deals more damage as a main tank than as an off-tank, because a main tank DRK deals all the damage of an off-tank DRK, plus whatever extra damage you get out of Reprisal and Blood Price.
WAR deals more damage as an off-tank than as a main-tank, because as an off-tank they need to replace zero Fell Cleaves with Inner Beasts, and as an off-tank they can reserve Vengeance, Raw Intuition, and Infuriate purely as Abandon-generators without needing to save them for mitigation.

If A > B and C > D, then there is no way that B + D > A + C, regardless of whether or not D > A.

[Shinjii]

Flatly incorrect.

DRK deals more damage as a main tank than as an off-tank, because a main tank DRK deals all the damage of an off-tank DRK, plus whatever extra damage you get out of Reprisal and Blood Price.
WAR deals more damage as an off-tank than as a main-tank, because as an off-tank they need to replace zero Fell Cleaves with Inner Beasts, and as an off-tank they can reserve Vengeance, Raw Intuition, and Infuriate purely as Abandon-generators without needing to save them for mitigation.

If A > B and C > D, then there is no way that B + D > A + C, regardless of whether or not D > A.

This exactly. A MT DRK ideally would not have to use grit and through the use of a ninja this would be possible.

A MT DRK in this scenario loses nothing and gains extra Dark Arts, Reprisals, and Low Blows.

A warrior would still be doing their maximum DPS and probably more.

However, As soon as the DRK has to fight the warrior for aggro it is more DPS for the WAR to tank.Of course these are ideal scenarios and the maximum group DPS you can achieve is highly dependent on a bunch of different factors that im too lazy to lay out and it really isnt the point of this thread.

[Iagainsti]

Nobody's having enmity issues. We are talking about maximising group DPS, you know, the thing you're not doing.
I really wonder how can someone completly miss the point, even after it being repeated over and over for 12 pages. It's kind of impressive and sad at the same time.

I'd like to point out, Canadane is one of the few people on this forum with great common sense and tends to be rather witty, and the OP is about the MT having enmity issues when the OT uses a BB combo, only the hereafter delves into maximizing dps.

#halfright ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[RecklessLion]

By your logic, yes it should hold true, but in raid/trial encounters, path should only be used when needed, not because the MT can't keep hate.

Every 20 seconds it's needed unless it's a burn phase.

[SpookyGhost]

If we want to talk optimal min/max, you have the WAR pull with NIN Shade Walker + early 3x FC (pre-Infuriate + RI @ 1s etc) so that Vengeance ticks hit the boss and WAR is in Deliverance asap.

Even more min/max, you just use 2 WARs.

Regardless, though, in a DRK/WAR comp you'd end up with more group DPS if you let the DRK take over after Berserk fades.

[Syzygian]

If we want to talk optimal min/max, you have the WAR pull with NIN Shade Walker + early 3x FC (pre-Infuriate + RI @ 1s etc) so that Vengeance ticks hit the boss and WAR is in Deliverance asap.

Could you not also have the WAR do the same thing except OT, Shadewalker the DRK as he pulls out of Grit, and achieve the exact same DPS + Reprisal/Low Blow Procs and a 4x DASE chain thanks to BP+BW at the cost of some Vengeance counterattacks?

Storm's Path being a selling point was news to me up until Heavensward, despite picking it up in 2.0 for a bit. It wasn't even until I started browsing the forums that I noticed people claiming it was the greatest thing ever, and yet I have never found any particular reason to use it in most content, except while leveling 38-49 for it's minor self heal when I saw the healer was having a hard time for whatever reason. Warrior's selling point back then was Inner Beast.

Okay, I apologize, but at this point I have to stop and ask if you even raid.

[SpookyGhost]

Could you not also have the WAR do the same thing except OT, Shadewalker the DRK as he pulls out of Grit, and achieve the exact same DPS + Reprisal/Low Blow Procs and a 4x DASE chain thanks to BP+BW at the cost of some Vengeance counterattacks?

Depends on the fight (mainly if the boss stops attacking for any periods in the opening), but Vengeance is a 15s 50 potency reflect buffed by Berserk, IR, potion (iirc), and crit stacks. Pretty strong, dunno if Reprisal/Low Blow/extra DASE would make up for it, but haven't exactly mapped it out.

As a side note, with a DRK/WAR composition during early progression, it's better to have the DRK pull just to have Reprisal and Path up asap. Usually this is what you start with, and unless the DPS check is suuuuuuper tight you don't really want to start switching roles around.

[Instrumentality]

Depends on the fight (mainly if the boss stops attacking for any periods in the opening), but Vengeance is a 15s 50 potency reflect buffed by Berserk, IR, potion (iirc), and crit stacks. Pretty strong, dunno if Reprisal/Low Blow/extra DASE would make up for it, but haven't exactly mapped it out.

Vengeance return hits can crit? Is that a thing that happens?

[SpookyGhost]

Vengeance return hits can crit? Is that a thing that happens?

I can't imagine they wouldn't be able to, they're 50 potency attacks so they should be subject to crit% like normal attacks, dots, heals, etc.

If for some reason they're not, it's still a 50 potency reflect buffed by Berserk which on its own is pretty dang strong.

[HoodRat]

...it's always been Warrior MT for maximum DPS.

Wasn't SwO pld able to outdps war w/o Defiance as mt pre-heavensward?