Tanks using their enmity combo while being OT

[Lyth]

There was recently a discussion and analysis on this subject: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._their_threat/

Here's the summary:
The highest potency combo on WAR is also their highest threat combo (with an inbuilt enmity modifier of 3x on the second hit and 6x on the third hit). The same is not true for PLD or DRK - the highest dps combo for these classes generates no additional enmity. It is an overall raid-wide dps loss for a PLD or DRK MT to use their threat combo just to hold aggro off of an OT WAR spamming BB/SE (i.e. we can do it easily, but it hurts our dps more than it does yours). It is also a raid-wide DPS loss for PLD or DRK to OT, because every reprisal proc is equivalent to 9 BB combos, and every shield swipe proc is equivalent to 5 BB combos. If you're about to take aggro as a WAR OT, either weave in an SP combo to boost healer dps, or if the thought of a 40 potency loss every 3 GCDs is too painful, just double SE and take a 20 potency loss instead. Your raid group will love you for it, and you'll get to feel almost as awesome as you did before.

[Fyce]

^snip^

This is right.

Here's a tl;dr for the sake of this thread and for lazy people: if your BB combo forces your MT into doing more enmity combo to keep aggro, then it's an overall raid-wide DPS loss (if your MT isn't also a WAR, obviously).

[Delorean]

The difference in potency is 10 isnt it? If thats why then those guys are way too worried about their DPS

*shrug*

just because you say you are MT does not mean anyone is willing to relinquish that position to you. I like to be MT because it means a lot of sitting around doing nothing and it's better for the group if my DPS is better than yours.

If I know the fight or no one else is bothering to explain, I'm not just going to give you MT because you want it or say you are MT. Especially if I'm building hate quickly.

[WolfKid]

If I know the fight or no one else is bothering to explain, I'm not just going to give you MT because you want it or say you are MT. Especially if I'm building hate quickly.

................OK..... You thought my thread didnt apply to me myself becaaaaause?

[Ultimatecalibur]

I had not really thought about it, but OP is pretty much right.

A Warrior OT in Deliverance doing SE -> BB looses about 42 net potency per 6 GCDs (7 net potency per GCD) if they switch to SE -> SP.

A Paladin MT in Shield Oath doing GB -> RA -> RA looses 64 net potency per 9 GCDs (7.11 net potency per GCD) if forced to switch to GB -> RA -> RoH and 128 net potency per 9 GCDs (14.2 net potency per GCD) if forced to switch to GB -> RoH -> RoH. In Sword Oath the losses are 8.88 net and 17.77 net. 65.33 net if the Paladin needs to both switch to Shield Oath and use GB -> RoH -> RoH to maintain enmity.

The group looses more DpS with equally geared tanks by forcing Paladin MTs to use RoH than it does by Warriors keeping SE and SP up instead of using BB.

[Whiteroom]

I had not really thought about it, but OP is pretty much right.

A Warrior OT in Deliverance doing SE -> BB looses about 42 net potency per 6 GCDs (7 net potency per GCD) if they switch to SE -> SP.

A Paladin MT in Shield Oath doing GB -> RA -> RA looses 64 net potency per 9 GCDs (7.11 net potency per GCD) if forced to switch to GB -> RA -> RoH and 128 net potency per 9 GCDs (14.2 net potency per GCD) if forced to switch to GB -> RoH -> RoH. In Sword Oath the losses are 8.88 net and 17.77 net. 65.33 net if the Paladin needs to both switch to Shield Oath and use GB -> RoH -> RoH to maintain enmity.

The group looses more DpS with equally geared tanks by forcing Paladin MTs to use RoH than it does by Warriors keeping SE and SP up instead of using BB.

That really applies to War/pally combo though. Not home so can't look up drk at the moment. It also assumes that the MT is being optimal. But really they should have a decent hat lead.with their opener.

[Ultimatecalibur]

That really applies to War/pally combo though. Not home so can't look up drk at the moment. It also assumes that the MT is being optimal. But really they should have a decent hat lead.with their opener.

Paladin enmity burst/opener isn't really that great. Paladin's only have 1 damage buff cooldown (Fight or Flight +30%) and RoH has the lowest enmity generation of all the Tank enmity combos due to having lower total potency (150/200/260 for 610) and lower multipiliers (x3/x5).

In comparison, a Warrior's enmity burst/opener has 2 damage buff cooldowns (Berserk +50% and Unchained +33.33% for a combined x2 damage increase) that can be combined with a buff/debuff combo (+5% damage -10% slash resist which is effectively a 11% slash damage buff) as well as higher total potency (150/200/280) and higher multipliers (x3.5/x5.5).

[Ashelia_Ferron]

Paladin enmity burst/opener isn't really that great. Paladin's only have 1 damage buff cooldown (Fight or Flight +30%) and RoH has the lowest enmity generation of all the Tank enmity combos due to having lower total potency (150/200/260 for 610) and lower multipiliers (x3/x5).

In comparison, a Warrior's enmity burst/opener has 2 damage buff cooldowns (Berserk +50% and Unchained +33.33% for a combined x2 damage increase) that can be combined with a buff/debuff combo (+5% damage -10% slash resist which is effectively a 11% slash damage buff) as well as higher total potency (150/200/280) and higher multipliers (x3.5/x5.5).

Er, why would you be using Unchained if OT? Most OT WARs use Deliverance, not Defiance....
Also where's the 33.33% coming from? Curious, considering all it does is get rid of the penalty from Defiance, which, again, OTs wouldn't be in.

[WolfKid]

Er, why would you be using Unchained if OT? Most OT WARs use Deliverance, not Defiance....
Also where's the 33.33% coming from? Curious, considering all it does is get rid of the penalty from Defiance, which, again, OTs wouldn't be in.

Im pretty sure he's talking about WARs MTing

[Whiteroom]

Paladin enmity burst/opener isn't really that great. Paladin's only have 1 damage buff cooldown (Fight or Flight +30%) and RoH has the lowest enmity generation of all the Tank enmity combos due to having lower total potency (150/200/260 for 610) and lower multipiliers (x3/x5).

In comparison, a Warrior's enmity burst/opener has 2 damage buff cooldowns (Berserk +50% and Unchained +33.33% for a combined x2 damage increase) that can be combined with a buff/debuff combo (+5% damage -10% slash resist which is effectively a 11% slash damage buff) as well as higher total potency (150/200/280) and higher multipliers (x3.5/x5.5).

Even with all of that, as PLD, I never had these issues unless the OT was remaning in tank stance and actively trying to take hate to troll. That or if I did something stupid like hit sprint as soon as I went to pull...

But even that lower PLD generation should change this month.

And those full VIT tanks that have trouble with hate will change too.