The Illusion of Choice

[Kaurie]

2 reasons: First, a bad rotation is easy to spot and usually can be something that is address -in progress-. A bad build can be as much as choosing one skill wrong and can either be quick to fix or require a lenghtly conversation and isn't something that can be altered within a dungeon. Second: It creates artificial complexity and introduces a wild card where-in if, say, I am playing with a WHM I will always know which skills they will have at a specific level. At 60 you will always have the same skillset regardless of the rest of gear or anything else. In a build-based system there's always the possibility of 'opting out' of a skill like Benediction, or for a PLD 'opting out' of Flash.

Imagine this conversation, the first is with guaranteed skills:
"Why don't you use Flash?"
"Because I don't like using it."

Second, with possible choice:
"Why don't you use Flash?"
"Because I chose <skill x> over it."

With option 1 you can explain why a tank can be using Flash and reason them into it. With option 2... you get into DF with that and you're stuck either kicking them, leaving or dealing with no AoE emnity control. Yes, I know that with careful planning on the Dev side this wouldn't be an issue, but it's something they would have to spend an inordinate amount of time on to make sure the content they have isn't broken when the skill system comes out..... or spend time rebalancing the old content to work with the new system.

So essentially, the illusion of choice is not the issue. The issue is that you simply do not like the idea of not having the same access to everything as everyone else. Correct? TBH I am not sure what the issue with not having the exact same toolkit is. If I bring a SCH, I don't have benediction for this dungeon, but that doesn't mean the SCH is useless.

For your flash example, I see both as equally bad. The tank won't use flash either way, so the outcome for me is the same. As for discussion, I don't see why you cannot have a discussion about build. "Hey, let's stay out of combat for a second. Why are you not using flash?" ... etc etc.. "I recommend you change your build to include it." tank changes build. Continue. However, in both situations what is likely to happen is a tank that either ignores you or gets mad for being elitist and continues to not flash.

I think the devs would be smart enough to not remove vital skills such as flash though. They could do something more like this:
1. Flash does a 15 potency attack
2. Flash applies a debuff to attackers that reduces physical damage dealt 20%
3. Flash regenerates HP: Potency 10 for each mob hit

2 and 3 may allow for a PLD to pull a larger group for great AoE, or 1 would allow for the tank to supplement some AoE if they are confident in their healer and their CD's.

Then again, there are numerous ways they can add customization, and this was just off the top of my head right now.

However, if it's possible for two BRDs to have entirely the exact same gear set that you can see, but have a totally different set of skills at their disposal... and if I present that to you and say, 'Okay, one has a fantastic build with great skills and the other's build is complete crap, but I'm not telling you which'... well, are you just going to pick one at random and pray you get the best one? Even if you're doing some dinky little dungeon that normally you can complete in 15 min? If I told you the one with the bad build would make you take twice as long? I highly doubt most people would just grab one and go hope for the best.

I still don't see how this is different than our current set up where a BRD can pull 270 DPS or 1300 DPS in our current end-game. There is no way to tell what kind of bard they are going to be, because no one is going to walk up to you and say "Hey, I put out abysmal DPS, can I join your PF?". So, I ask again, why is it OK for our current game to have rotations that allow for players to be so horrible, but not OK for there to be builds which vary in DPS?

However, in the vein of the title of this thread it comes down to this... in order for a true skill-tree system to be effective and viable it has to be created along with content that makes any choice you make in how you distribute your skills just as effective as any other. That means that if you have 3 routes you can go down, in order to make it work so no one route is favored all routes must be equal. Route 1 must be as good as Route 2, which must be as good as Route 3. If Route 1, 2 and 3 are all essentially the same in the end... why add on the complexity of tree that only leads you to the same destination in the end? Your choice in that is an illusion... it's an aesthetic and it is artificial in its complexity because it is ultimately meaningless. If you don't make the ends equal, then one end will always be chosen and then you also really have no choice. When all routes are equal, it is just as unfulfilling as if there was only one route. When one route is superior to all others then most people will eventually move to that one and no other routes become viable unless the devs design content specifically to make you use that route... and then you end up shuffling your builds for everything you do. We do this enough with jobs as it stands, we don't need to be doing it with builds on top of jobs, as far as I'm concerned.

I fundamentally disagree, which I feel has largely gone ignored - despite me posting something to the contrary every few pages through this entire thread. All trees do not need to be equal, they need to excel in their own various ways. This could be damage oriented (but riskier) where build 1 has high burst, build 2 has high aoe, build 3 has high sustained. This could be done by utility/support where build 1 has strong team MP/TP refresh support, build 2 has team defense support, build 3 has high CC ability (bind/slow/stun. It could be mobility related such as a BLM has the option to have all spells have 1.5x the recast time, but 1/2 the cast time (or whatever it is to work out to the same spells/minute that we have now with downtime to move), a skill similar to current lightspeed, or a trait that makes scathe do much higher fire-based damage.

But you can't dismiss Rage Of Halone altogether, either for the enmity you would want as a MT, or the STR debuff than can be very useful for physical hitting boss.

Not everything revolves around highest DPS...

In which case, 30 potency every 22.5 seconds is nothing to concern yourself with.

[Reynhart]

In which case, 30 potency every 22.5 seconds is nothing to concern yourself with.

Noooo, don't say that, you fool !
For some people, losing 30 potency is probably being a complete crap

Jokes aside, the difference is not 30 potency, since, wherever you apply the bonus, you'll end with a 30 potency bonus. It's enmity/debuff vs 80 potency (340-260)

[Kaurie]

Noooo, don't say that, you fool !
For some people, losing 30 potency is probably being a complete crap

Jokes aside, the difference is not 30 potency, since, wherever you apply the bonus, you'll end with a 30 potency bonus. It's enmity/debuff vs 80 potency (340-260)

I mean I get the difference, I am just saying IF not everything revolves around highest DPS, then don't concern yourself with it. If it does, that's how you get the highest DPS. If you want a middle ground choose another option. Don't get me wrong, I agree it was a relatively balanced choice (with 2 options providing the same damage buff in the high DPS rotation and 1 providing a much higher enmity gain).

EDIT: Just re-read your post and missed the word 'not'. The difference is 30 potency, because in one situation you get a 10 potency buff 3x or a 15 potency buff 2x over 3 combos. If you work in Goring/Royal/Halone as your rotation, then the 30 on halone is also 30 per 3 combos.

[Reynhart]

The difference is 30 potency, because in one situation you get a 10 potency buff 3x or a 15 potency buff 2x over 3 combos. If you work in Goring/Royal/Halone as your rotation, then the 30 on halone is also 30 per 3 combos.

Wether you do GB-RA-RA or GB-RoH-RA you always end up using the full +30 potency upgrade on 3 combos, either on 3 Fast Blade, 2 Savage Blade or 1 RoH...unless you put your bonus on RoH and still do GB-RA-RA, which is kind of a waste.
GB-RA-RA (with the bonus on Fast Blade) (160+230+220)+(160+200+340)+(160+200+340) = 2010 (Not counting DoT since they're not affected)
GB-RA-RA (with the bonus on Savage Blade) (150+230+220)+(150+215+340)+(150+215+340) = 2010

GB-RoH-RA would be either (160+230+220)+(160+200+260)+(160+200+340) = 1930
or (150+230+220)+(150+215+260)+(150+215+340) = 1930
or (150+230+220)+(150+200+290)+(150+200+340) = 1930

So, in the end, GB-RA-RA gives 80 more potency than GB-RoH-RA...as it does now.

Merit Points generally worked pretty well in FFXI.

Yes, they worked but what they offered was clearly not thought well enough. As you said, some skill were fantastic, others were garbage...but some, even on the same job. (Who would spend 220 000 Xp for an interruption rate down effect up for 30 seconds every 5 minutes...?)