The Illusion of Choice

[Iagainsti]

SMN even though they can be slighty weaker..

Since Warrior mitigation for trash increases per mob you pull, you should realize SMN is your best DPS friend.

[Malzian]

That again...
Why ? because some builds are more fun.

And again "hindering people" is overdramatizing for everyone besides top-tier-high-end-game-world-first-parties. It's exactly why people keep playing PLD, MCH and SMN even though they can be slighty weaker...or how you can end with i160 people in the Expert Roulette instead of ilvl170...
So, in fact, for 99,99% percent of the game x playerbase, chosing a different build is not an issue.

And the best part ? Since people can level each job, they can chose to follow one optimum build for their "raid-job" and be creative with everything else for the Duty Finder.

Skills tree is a far better option to invest development time than Chocobo Racing...or chocobo breeding...or Lors Of Verminion...or Triple Triad...

You do realize that situations like this work because the only real 'choice' you have in these scenarios is your gear, right? And that the things you mention have minimum iLvl restrictions to make sure that you're not thrown into a dungeon you really couldn't handle? And that dungeons in those instances are generally tuned to work with any of the classes...?

As far as being called out only applying to 'top-tier-high-end-game-world-first-parties'... I've gotten called out and kicked from Fractal for not pulling the whole damned first room because the healer was undergeared and I was worried about heals, so don't go telling me it's not something that doesn't happen outside of World First Prog.

Indeed, hence this part of my post, "The difference between the two is execution and planning. Personally, I find forethought and planning to be quite fun, and the execution to be somewhat fun." I get that they are different; however, the reasoning that there is "one best option" can be applied to rotations. As that doesn't mean rotations should go, there must be another reason why having builds is not desired.

i.e. You could choose a rotation of only Ice Spells as a BLM in today's game and everyone will hate you for it, or you can choose a poor build and everyone will hate you for it. Why is option one OK to have in the game and option two is not?

2 reasons: First, a bad rotation is easy to spot and usually can be something that is address -in progress-. A bad build can be as much as choosing one skill wrong and can either be quick to fix or require a lenghtly conversation and isn't something that can be altered within a dungeon.

Second: It creates artificial complexity and introduces a wild card where-in if, say, I am playing with a WHM I will always know which skills they will have at a specific level. At 60 you will always have the same skillset regardless of the rest of gear or anything else. In a build-based system there's always the possibility of 'opting out' of a skill like Benediction, or for a PLD 'opting out' of Flash.

Imagine this conversation, the first is with guaranteed skills:
"Why don't you use Flash?"
"Because I don't like using it."

Second, with possible choice:
"Why don't you use Flash?"
"Because I chose <skill x> over it."

With option 1 you can explain why a tank can be using Flash and reason them into it. With option 2... you get into DF with that and you're stuck either kicking them, leaving or dealing with no AoE emnity control. Yes, I know that with careful planning on the Dev side this wouldn't be an issue, but it's something they would have to spend an inordinate amount of time on to make sure the content they have isn't broken when the skill system comes out..... or spend time rebalancing the old content to work with the new system.

[Alahra]

If you're not using the 'perfect build' then you are only ever hindering the people you are playing with and if you do that then people will call you out on it and shun you from content.

Doesn't this argument also apply to classes within the same role though? For instance, BRD has a DPS edge over MCH at this point in time. What is the point of having both BRD and MCH if one of them is always going to be mathematically superior?

[Malzian]

Doesn't this argument also apply to classes within the same role though? For instance, BRD has a DPS edge over MCH at this point in time. What is the point of having both BRD and MCH if one of them is always going to be mathematically superior?

Which is, indeed, an argument that happens.

[Alahra]

Which is, indeed, an argument that happens.

Just because an argument happens doesn't mean that it's a good argument.

[Malzian]

Just because an argument happens doesn't mean that it's a good argument.

Yes, I agree, but just because it's not a good argument does not negate the reality that it happens. I don't agree or prescribe to that particular notion myself... But then I also don't agree with a lot of bad things people still do anyway...

[Alahra]

Yes, I agree, but just because it's not a good argument does not negate the reality that it happens. I don't agree or prescribe to that particular notion myself... But then I also don't agree with people ruining around shooting up places but it still happens.

I think you're missing the point of my bringing it up though. I think it's just as invalid an argument against player customization as I think it is against classes in general.

[FoxyAreku]

I'm reminded of WoW where I was laughed at for years for being a holy priest when discipline was 10 times better in 80% of fights.

I'll pass. The game doesn't need this.

[Alahra]

I'm reminded of WoW where I was laughed at for years for being a holy priest when discipline was 10 times better in 80% of fights.

Personally, I don't want anything approaching WoW's level of customization in Vanilla/BC. But you can still have a controlled amount of customization without introducing grievous imbalance. WoW's current talent model (or FFXI's merit points) are examples of the sorts of things that I think could work here.

The big problem in early WoW's case was an over-emphasis on talents that increased general effectiveess (DPS, HPS, or mitigation) and that's definitely not what I'm looking for in FFXIV when it comes to customization.

[Malzian]

I think you're missing the point of my bringing it up though. I think it's just as invalid an argument against player customization as I think it is against classes in general.

No, I understand what you meant, and I agree in the terms you state it that it's a bad argument. However, you're comparing apples and oranges here because the difference you're talking is that if I have to choose between a BRD and a MCH I will always know how those two classes stack up because I know for the most part what each class can do. I know a BRD, regardless of gear (which you can always check), will come with a pre-determined pool of skills that will generally result in certain expectations I can make about what that BRD is potentially capable of.

However, if it's possible for two BRDs to have entirely the exact same gear set that you can see, but have a totally different set of skills at their disposal... and if I present that to you and say, 'Okay, one has a fantastic build with great skills and the other's build is complete crap, but I'm not telling you which'... well, are you just going to pick one at random and pray you get the best one? Even if you're doing some dinky little dungeon that normally you can complete in 15 min? If I told you the one with the bad build would make you take twice as long? I highly doubt most people would just grab one and go hope for the best.

Now all of this is just a player-side issue, how we as a community handle the 'choices' we're given. There's a whooole other side to the issue as well where the devs are concerned. As it stands, the devs already have a difficult time developing content that's tuned equally to all of the classes. Yes, all content can be done with all of the classes but some compositions inherently make things much, much more difficult than others. This is with the devs also knowing exactly how every single class will handle in every instance they make because those skills are pre-determined. They make decisions about this all of the time and we already see what comes from that. Throw this complexity on top of it and it's just making it even harder for the devs to tune the content appropriately to give everyone a chance and it just makes everything harder if even the devs can't be certain what skills any particular job can come into content with or without.

However, in the vein of the title of this thread it comes down to this... in order for a true skill-tree system to be effective and viable it has to be created along with content that makes any choice you make in how you distribute your skills just as effective as any other. That means that if you have 3 routes you can go down, in order to make it work so no one route is favored all routes must be equal. Route 1 must be as good as Route 2, which must be as good as Route 3. If Route 1, 2 and 3 are all essentially the same in the end... why add on the complexity of tree that only leads you to the same destination in the end? Your choice in that is an illusion... it's an aesthetic and it is artificial in its complexity because it is ultimately meaningless. If you don't make the ends equal, then one end will always be chosen and then you also really have no choice. When all routes are equal, it is just as unfulfilling as if there was only one route. When one route is superior to all others then most people will eventually move to that one and no other routes become viable unless the devs design content specifically to make you use that route... and then you end up shuffling your builds for everything you do. We do this enough with jobs as it stands, we don't need to be doing it with builds on top of jobs, as far as I'm concerned.

At this point, I think I've said all I have to say on this topic and I'm going to bow out. Have a good day.