The Illusion of Choice

[Reynhart]

The "best" option here is probably Rage of Halone, since it has a higher enmity modifier than Savage Blade (at least, as far as I recall, it does). This would allow you more Royal Authority combos while tanking since you wouldn't need as many Rage combos to hold hate. The best option for OT is probably the Fast Blade one.

But, when doing Royal Authority, you don't use Rage Of Halone, so your additionnal potency is not used.
As for Fast Blade, unless you're OT all the time, it's the less effective boost since it only adds potency. But if you tend to spend a fair amount of time in Shield Oath, or are generally better geared than the average DPS, the enmity boost wouldn't be important.
Savage Blade could also be a good choice since it adds a little bit of enmity, and is on the path to RoH and RA, useful as a MT and as an OT.
Back to Rage Of Halone, you could also take critical hit into account. If you crit on a Fast Blade, you only apply the crit bonus for this 10 potency boost. If you crit on RoH, you could apply it on the full 30 potency.

And what if I added "Increase Riot Blade's potency by 30" ? Still the same overall increase for a 9-GCD rotation, but if you tend to use a lot of MP, you could end up with a higher (Or, should I say, a less low) potency for when you focus on refilling your MP.

You nailed one thing though. It's the OT vs MT. There could be traits that only a MT would use, like an enmity boost, or the ability to block magic, or traits that only an OT would use, like an increased DoT potency for Goring Blade when performed from the back. These two lasts traits could be a good start to make two PLD not really the same.

[Alahra]

There could be traits that only a MT would use, like an enmity boost, or the ability to block magic, or traits that only an OT would use, like an increased DoT potency for Goring Blade when performed from the back. These two lasts traits could be a good start to make two PLD not really the same.

These are the sorts of things I think would be better than basic Potency increases, the option to block magic would obviously be mandatory, as would a raw potency increase to Goring Blade, so those would likely run into the problem that Yoshi-P talked about where everyone would simply gravitate toward the same choices.

For PLD, I'd much rather see something that, say, made Clemency an instant cast, or another choice that made Divine Veil trigger automatically (without the need for a heal). Another option might make Shield Swipe a GCD again (for players that preferred the old style, though this would need to be carefully balanced versus the oGCD option). Other skills to look at might include Cover or Tempered Will, or even Shield Bash.

I'm just very wary of customization choices that focus on DPS in any real capacity (outside of niche DPS stuff like improving AoE for melee classes, which is primarily useful in dungeon environments) given everything we learned about actual illusions of choice from WoW over the years—given the choice between a numbers increase and another type of choice that doesn't increase numbers (or doesn't increase them as much), the choice is always the numbers (or the choice that creates the biggest numbers). The same goes for mandatory talents (like having the ability to block magic, since magic damage is so prevalent in the game).

[Reynhart]

These are the sorts of things I think would be better than basic Potency increases, the option to block magic would obviously be mandatory

The option, yes. But if the trait had several tier, with increased Block Rate at each tier, perhaps you wouldn't buy them all if you're mostly playing OT.
As for the increased potency on Goring Blade, adding a positional would make it less appealing for some people (Look at the riot from NINs in 3.0 ), especially for those who prefer MT.

My potency suggestion was just to show that, even with something simple as that, and, for all intent, balanced in regards to overall potency, each option has it pros and cons.
I think the best way to blur the line between builds is to take into account the context. Like I said, depending oh which stance you use most, or the people you play with, some traits might not been as useful.

There is also a way to please everyone ! (Yes, it's a very bold statement)
Make it so that, when capped, you gain something akin to Merit Points. With these Merit Points you could buy traits...ALL of them. But you could only equip a fragment of them at the same time, like you equip cross-class skills.
So, in the end, everybody will still be able to do everything, depending on the situation. And you could change your traits wether you play solo, in easy content, or in hard content. You just need to decide the order of which you'll buy your traits.

In the end, it's closer to the concept of Diablo III, but, for me, it's better than nothing.

[Kaurie]

WoW at least has more stat variety on its gear. Removing Accuracy in FFXIV, at least right now, would make gearing up even more bland than it already is. :/



The "best" option here is probably Rage of Halone, since it has a higher enmity modifier than Savage Blade (at least, as far as I recall, it does). This would allow you more Royal Authority combos while tanking since you wouldn't need as many Rage combos to hold hate. The best option for OT is probably the Fast Blade one.

But that's not really a very interesting choice (in terms of raw potency, they're all identical over a full 9-GCD rotation, and none of them would significantly make you different from the next PLD).

The highest DPS PLD rotation is Fast Blade - Riot - Goring, Fast - Savage - Royal, Fast - Savage - Royal -> repeat. This gives 3x fast blade uses, and 2x savage blade uses. Either option would give a total of 30 potency more per 3 combo's. Personally, I'd go the Fast Blade, as that is more likely to be used (if you kill it before you get to the second use), but otherwise they are the same.

IMO, if that was how they added traits though, I'd be fairly disappointed.

[Bashum]

I'd be down for that, I hate no longer gaining any sort of experience as soon as you hit 60. Would give me more incentive to grind the same dungeons over and over again at least.

[Ibi]

The "best" option here is probably Rage of Halone, since it has a higher enmity modifier than Savage Blade (at least, as far as I recall, it does). This would allow you more Royal Authority combos while tanking since you wouldn't need as many Rage combos to hold hate. The best option for OT is probably the Fast Blade one.

But that's not really a very interesting choice (in terms of raw potency, they're all identical over a full 9-GCD rotation, and none of them would significantly make you different from the next PLD).

Rage of Halone looks at first glance like it's a good choice if you're the main tank, because it'll boost your enmity the most (RoH has a 5x enmity mod, Savage Blade is 3x), but the main advantage of having higher enmity is that you can now use Royal Authority more... at which point you're no longer getting the bonus.

As a result, SB might be a better choice (because that will stay in your rotation if you switch from RoH to RA), but then you're generating more enmity when you're not the main tank, which isn't desirable, so maybe you really want to take Fast Blade instead so you can get the DPS increase without the enmity increase when you don't want it...

But then your enmity is the lowest of the three options when you are the main tank, so maybe you might need more RoH combos... and now we've circled back to the start.

Admittedly, the differences that a decision like this is going to make are relatively subtle and minor (basically resolving to how often you use RoH vs RA when main tanking), but it is an example of a balanced choice that doesn't have a clear, easily calculated solution.

[Reynhart]

The highest DPS PLD rotation is Fast Blade - Riot - Goring, Fast - Savage - Royal, Fast - Savage - Royal -> repeat.

But you can't dismiss Rage Of Halone altogether, either for the enmity you would want as a MT, or the STR debuff than can be very useful for physical hitting boss.

Not everything revolves around highest DPS...

Admittedly, the differences that a decision like this is going to make are relatively subtle and minor (basically resolving to how often you use RoH vs RA when main tanking), but it is an example of a balanced choice that doesn't have a clear, easily calculated solution.

Glad that you see it that way

[Kaurie]

2 reasons: First, a bad rotation is easy to spot and usually can be something that is address -in progress-. A bad build can be as much as choosing one skill wrong and can either be quick to fix or require a lenghtly conversation and isn't something that can be altered within a dungeon. Second: It creates artificial complexity and introduces a wild card where-in if, say, I am playing with a WHM I will always know which skills they will have at a specific level. At 60 you will always have the same skillset regardless of the rest of gear or anything else. In a build-based system there's always the possibility of 'opting out' of a skill like Benediction, or for a PLD 'opting out' of Flash.

Imagine this conversation, the first is with guaranteed skills:
"Why don't you use Flash?"
"Because I don't like using it."

Second, with possible choice:
"Why don't you use Flash?"
"Because I chose <skill x> over it."

With option 1 you can explain why a tank can be using Flash and reason them into it. With option 2... you get into DF with that and you're stuck either kicking them, leaving or dealing with no AoE emnity control. Yes, I know that with careful planning on the Dev side this wouldn't be an issue, but it's something they would have to spend an inordinate amount of time on to make sure the content they have isn't broken when the skill system comes out..... or spend time rebalancing the old content to work with the new system.

So essentially, the illusion of choice is not the issue. The issue is that you simply do not like the idea of not having the same access to everything as everyone else. Correct? TBH I am not sure what the issue with not having the exact same toolkit is. If I bring a SCH, I don't have benediction for this dungeon, but that doesn't mean the SCH is useless.

For your flash example, I see both as equally bad. The tank won't use flash either way, so the outcome for me is the same. As for discussion, I don't see why you cannot have a discussion about build. "Hey, let's stay out of combat for a second. Why are you not using flash?" ... etc etc.. "I recommend you change your build to include it." tank changes build. Continue. However, in both situations what is likely to happen is a tank that either ignores you or gets mad for being elitist and continues to not flash.

I think the devs would be smart enough to not remove vital skills such as flash though. They could do something more like this:
1. Flash does a 15 potency attack
2. Flash applies a debuff to attackers that reduces physical damage dealt 20%
3. Flash regenerates HP: Potency 10 for each mob hit

2 and 3 may allow for a PLD to pull a larger group for great AoE, or 1 would allow for the tank to supplement some AoE if they are confident in their healer and their CD's.

Then again, there are numerous ways they can add customization, and this was just off the top of my head right now.

However, if it's possible for two BRDs to have entirely the exact same gear set that you can see, but have a totally different set of skills at their disposal... and if I present that to you and say, 'Okay, one has a fantastic build with great skills and the other's build is complete crap, but I'm not telling you which'... well, are you just going to pick one at random and pray you get the best one? Even if you're doing some dinky little dungeon that normally you can complete in 15 min? If I told you the one with the bad build would make you take twice as long? I highly doubt most people would just grab one and go hope for the best.

I still don't see how this is different than our current set up where a BRD can pull 270 DPS or 1300 DPS in our current end-game. There is no way to tell what kind of bard they are going to be, because no one is going to walk up to you and say "Hey, I put out abysmal DPS, can I join your PF?". So, I ask again, why is it OK for our current game to have rotations that allow for players to be so horrible, but not OK for there to be builds which vary in DPS?

However, in the vein of the title of this thread it comes down to this... in order for a true skill-tree system to be effective and viable it has to be created along with content that makes any choice you make in how you distribute your skills just as effective as any other. That means that if you have 3 routes you can go down, in order to make it work so no one route is favored all routes must be equal. Route 1 must be as good as Route 2, which must be as good as Route 3. If Route 1, 2 and 3 are all essentially the same in the end... why add on the complexity of tree that only leads you to the same destination in the end? Your choice in that is an illusion... it's an aesthetic and it is artificial in its complexity because it is ultimately meaningless. If you don't make the ends equal, then one end will always be chosen and then you also really have no choice. When all routes are equal, it is just as unfulfilling as if there was only one route. When one route is superior to all others then most people will eventually move to that one and no other routes become viable unless the devs design content specifically to make you use that route... and then you end up shuffling your builds for everything you do. We do this enough with jobs as it stands, we don't need to be doing it with builds on top of jobs, as far as I'm concerned.

I fundamentally disagree, which I feel has largely gone ignored - despite me posting something to the contrary every few pages through this entire thread. All trees do not need to be equal, they need to excel in their own various ways. This could be damage oriented (but riskier) where build 1 has high burst, build 2 has high aoe, build 3 has high sustained. This could be done by utility/support where build 1 has strong team MP/TP refresh support, build 2 has team defense support, build 3 has high CC ability (bind/slow/stun. It could be mobility related such as a BLM has the option to have all spells have 1.5x the recast time, but 1/2 the cast time (or whatever it is to work out to the same spells/minute that we have now with downtime to move), a skill similar to current lightspeed, or a trait that makes scathe do much higher fire-based damage.

But you can't dismiss Rage Of Halone altogether, either for the enmity you would want as a MT, or the STR debuff than can be very useful for physical hitting boss.

Not everything revolves around highest DPS...

In which case, 30 potency every 22.5 seconds is nothing to concern yourself with.

[Reynhart]

In which case, 30 potency every 22.5 seconds is nothing to concern yourself with.

Noooo, don't say that, you fool !
For some people, losing 30 potency is probably being a complete crap

Jokes aside, the difference is not 30 potency, since, wherever you apply the bonus, you'll end with a 30 potency bonus. It's enmity/debuff vs 80 potency (340-260)

[Kaurie]

Noooo, don't say that, you fool !
For some people, losing 30 potency is probably being a complete crap

Jokes aside, the difference is not 30 potency, since, wherever you apply the bonus, you'll end with a 30 potency bonus. It's enmity/debuff vs 80 potency (340-260)

I mean I get the difference, I am just saying IF not everything revolves around highest DPS, then don't concern yourself with it. If it does, that's how you get the highest DPS. If you want a middle ground choose another option. Don't get me wrong, I agree it was a relatively balanced choice (with 2 options providing the same damage buff in the high DPS rotation and 1 providing a much higher enmity gain).

EDIT: Just re-read your post and missed the word 'not'. The difference is 30 potency, because in one situation you get a 10 potency buff 3x or a 15 potency buff 2x over 3 combos. If you work in Goring/Royal/Halone as your rotation, then the 30 on halone is also 30 per 3 combos.