Astrologian impossible to balance as it is

[Ghishlain]

2) Nocturnal Sect is only a problem in raids. For all the other content, it's fine; for PvP, it's king. I don't see SMN players complaining about Titan-Egi being too situational, or MNK players saying that they want Fists of Earth to be a thing, or DRG players wanting more uses to Feint. Nocturnal can work as a PvP stance or something you use in DF when mitigation is needed. For raids, some of the toolkit will not be used, but we're talking about only ONE thing - MNK has two useless stances for raid and no one cries about them;

I see you bring up this point a lot and I unfortunately have to disagree on a semantic.

I do agree there are many situational ability/spell in the game. Like you've mentioned, Feint, Fists of Earth, Titan Egi. Repose can be added to that list as can Keen Flurry, etc etc.

However, I do feel you're either undervaluing how situational Nocturnal Stance is or overvaluing how important people feel about the very niche abilities/spells.

I feel this way because, while Nocturnal stance is indeed a single ability, it represents an entire healing paradigm.

Nocturnal Stance changes how you play the healer. You don't have HoTs anymore, you now have mitigation spells. Your heals, while slightly more powerful, require you to output more on-demand healing as you don't have more MP efficient HoTs that help normalize healing requirements over the course of a fight. Nocturnal ASTs will consume more MP than Diurnal AST, thus changing how one manages their resources. Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition have less targets to "extend".

When a MNK goes into Fists of Earth, they know they're doing it as a temporary basis to reduce damage received. It doesn't change the fact they're punching something in the face - they're still using the exact same rotation to pummel their foes. Likewise, using Titan-Egi doesn't necessarily mean the SMN is changing their DPS rotation, though it might mean they need to Sustain every so often.

Nocturnal Sect fundamentally changes how the AST heals their party. Unfortunately, it is generally inferior to Diurnal as Diurnal allows you better sustained healing via HoTs, better MP efficiency due to HoTs, higher DPS due to the attack speed, and better options with Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition (extending HoTs or Cards or both).

Ignoring the whole Noct AST vs SCH and focusing on Noct AST vs Diurnal AST, it would be nice if (1) Noct received some polish so the decision isn't so cut and dry regarding Noct versus Diurnal or (2) as you mentioned, a Sect swap that makes use of the full kit AST brings [hopefully in 4.0 when they can flesh out the kit further to incorporate such a dynamic].

[TatoRazzino]

I see you bring up this point a lot and I unfortunately have to disagree on a semantic.

I do agree there are many situational ability/spell in the game. Like you've mentioned, Feint, Fists of Earth, Titan Egi. Repose can be added to that list as can Keen Flurry, etc etc.

However, I do feel you're either undervaluing how situational Nocturnal Stance is or overvaluing how important people feel about the very niche abilities/spells.

I feel this way because, while Nocturnal stance is indeed a single ability, it represents an entire healing paradigm.

Nocturnal Stance changes how you play the healer. You don't have HoTs anymore, you now have mitigation spells. Your heals, while slightly more powerful, require you to output more on-demand healing as you don't have more MP efficient HoTs that help normalize healing requirements over the course of a fight. Nocturnal ASTs will consume more MP than Diurnal AST, thus changing how one manages their resources. Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition have less targets to "extend".

When a MNK goes into Fists of Earth, they know they're doing it as a temporary basis to reduce damage received. It doesn't change the fact they're punching something in the face - they're still using the exact same rotation to pummel their foes. Likewise, using Titan-Egi doesn't necessarily mean the SMN is changing their DPS rotation, though it might mean they need to Sustain every so often.

Nocturnal Sect fundamentally changes how the AST heals their party. Unfortunately, it is generally inferior to Diurnal as Diurnal allows you better sustained healing via HoTs, better MP efficiency due to HoTs, higher DPS due to the attack speed, and better options with Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition (extending HoTs or Cards or both).

Ignoring the whole Noct AST vs SCH and focusing on Noct AST vs Diurnal AST, it would be nice if (1) Noct received some polish so the decision isn't so cut and dry regarding Noct versus Diurnal or (2) as you mentioned, a Sect swap that makes use of the full kit AST brings [hopefully in 4.0 when they can flesh out the kit further to incorporate such a dynamic].

Nocturnal represents a healing paradigm, that's accurate. However, it's a paradigm you're not required to use. You use it because you want it, not because you're forced to. That's the key point. Being situational is not reason enough to change how something is built; if any fight required AST and you were forced to use Noct. AST, I'd agree with you, but that's not the case.

If you want to compare AST/SCH, I'm down for it and I've done it in other threads. The first thing is noticing that SCH also has healing paradigms with their summon spells. People overlook the fact that choosing Eos over Selene represents a raid-wide DPS loss to allow the SCH more healing options (and vice-versa), and while it's possible to change it during combat, this consumes resources and GCDs that could be better used in other contexts; what I mean is that the complete toolkit is not accessible to SCH all the time. The shields and emergency heals are the things that are available 100% of the time. AST has similar issues: you have to choose between hp-extension shields and HoTs, but you always have your healing cooldowns, your 2nd tier healing spell and your support toolkit all the time. This allows AST to be able to do more sustained burst healing since the job is not constrained by stacks and cooldowns to do basic stuff like Helios or Benefic II. This is an asset that has been pointed out by the OP and it's one of the reasons AST is hard to balance. This also represents some big differences in style and functionality between AST/SCH.

One of the issues that makes SCH more powerful than AST is the fact that fights are built around the SCH healing toolkit, and because of that all the weaknesses and restrictions of that toolkit are not noticeable. The fact that AST's weaknesses show is another consequence of that. This is something that can't be fixed by changing how Nocturnal Sect works. Nerfing SCH won't work as well.

Another issue is the fact that AST was not built as an off healer, and this is something that bugs me a lot in relation to comments about Nocturnal Sect. In my opinion, any fixes should take into consideration that Nocturnal doesn't need more mitigation or more DPS, but better healing options to compete with WHM and Diurnal as well. AST shouldn't compete with SCH in this matter; the next healer should be off-healer oriented, and then we'll see SCH being left out. This is not new to raiding, and it's not a problem. WHM/AST not being an optimal combo is not a problem, because it's only restricted to raiding, and in this game there has always been a sub-optimal combo. Like in 2.4, when DRG had no raid utility when compared to MNK/NIN and MNK/BRD had a fixed spot because of things only they could do; in this expansion, it's WAR/SCH's turn, and MNK lost its place because 1) DRK can function as well as PLD and add the debuff MNK had, and 2) the traited Mantra lost its value. Basically, not having WAR/SCH/NIN already means your party is sub-optimal.

That's not problem at all; the real problem is that fights were poorly designed, and the optional, optimal combo is being considered mandatory. There's no way to fix that by changing the jobs, only by changing the fights.

That is, if SE doesn't remove the restriction to change sects.

[Vlady]

Nocturnal represents a healing paradigm, that's accurate. However, it's a paradigm you're not required to use. You use it because you want it, not because you're forced to. That's the key point. Being situational is not reason enough to change how something is built; if any fight required AST and you were forced to use Noct. AST, I'd agree with you, but that's not the case.

If you want to compare AST/SCH, I'm down for it and I've done it in other threads. The first thing is noticing that SCH also has healing paradigms with their summon spells. People overlook the fact that choosing Eos over Selene represents a raid-wide DPS loss to allow the SCH more healing options (and vice-versa), and while it's possible to change it during combat, this consumes resources and GCDs that could be better used in other contexts; what I mean is that the complete toolkit is not accessible to SCH all the time. The shields and emergency heals are the things that are available 100% of the time. AST has similar issues: you have to choose between hp-extension shields and HoTs, but you always have your healing cooldowns, your 2nd tier healing spell and your support toolkit all the time. This allows AST to be able to do more sustained burst healing since the job is not constrained by stacks and cooldowns to do basic stuff like Helios or Benefic II. This is an asset that has been pointed out by the OP and it's one of the reasons AST is hard to balance. This also represents some big differences in style and functionality between AST/SCH.

One of the issues that makes SCH more powerful than AST is the fact that fights are built around the SCH healing toolkit, and because of that all the weaknesses and restrictions of that toolkit are not noticeable. The fact that AST's weaknesses show is another consequence of that. This is something that can't be fixed by changing how Nocturnal Sect works. Nerfing SCH won't work as well.

Another issue is the fact that AST was not built as an off healer, and this is something that bugs me a lot in relation to comments about Nocturnal Sect. In my opinion, any fixes should take into consideration that Nocturnal doesn't need more mitigation or more DPS, but better healing options to compete with WHM and Diurnal as well. AST shouldn't compete with SCH in this matter; the next healer should be off-healer oriented, and then we'll see SCH being left out. This is not new to raiding, and it's not a problem. WHM/AST not being an optimal combo is not a problem, because it's only restricted to raiding, and in this game there has always been a sub-optimal combo. Like in 2.4, when DRG had no raid utility when compared to MNK/NIN and MNK/BRD had a fixed spot because of things only they could do; in this expansion, it's WAR/SCH's turn, and MNK lost its place because 1) DRK can function as well as PLD and add the debuff MNK had, and 2) the traited Mantra lost its value. Basically, not having WAR/SCH/NIN already means your party is sub-optimal.

That's not problem at all; the real problem is that fights were poorly designed, and the optional, optimal combo is being considered mandatory. There's no way to fix that by changing the jobs, only by changing the fights.

That is, if SE doesn't remove the restriction to change sects. This would fix everything, because it will allow the

Comparing the changing of scholar fairy pets to being similar to the sects for the astro is not even remotely plausible to compare the two together. Pre knowledge of the fight to swift cast to use the aoe regen does not really use resources that negate from a scholars healing. You can cast the haste buff and swap to whispering wind and back again before the cooldown resets. Just requires knowledge of the fight to maximize its use..

And if you are doing a 4 man dungeon changing stances is sort of pointless as I do not know any dungeons that would make great use of nocturnal shields+duirnal hots rolling and in 8 man content for now a scholar will always have a raid spot. The best thing for the astro at this point is probably forget about having the shields that are in the realm of the scholar and find a new unique mechanic for nocturnal stance. I really feel it is prime to be a offensive stance with no healing potency loss like cleric stance that provides mana reduction costs to damage spells and maybe even heal like disc priest damage to heal a target with a buff applied to it.

[TatoRazzino]

Comparing the changing of scholar fairy pets to being similar to the sects for the astro is not even remotely plausible to compare the two together. Pre knowledge of the fight to swift cast to use the aoe regen does not really use resources that negate from a scholars healing. You can cast the haste buff and swap to whispering wind and back again before the cooldown resets. Just requires knowledge of the fight to maximize its use..

And if you are doing a 4 man dungeon changing stances is sort of pointless as I do not know any dungeons that would make great use of nocturnal shields+duirnal hots rolling and in 8 man content for now a scholar will always have a raid spot. The best thing for the astro at this point is probably forget about having the shields that are in the realm of the scholar and find a new unique mechanic for nocturnal stance. I really feel it is prime to be a offensive stance with no healing potency loss like cleric stance that provides mana reduction costs to damage spells and maybe even heal like disc priest damage to heal a target with a buff applied to it.

Or people could stop complaining about it and face the fact that optimal job combos exist in MMOs and that Nocturnal is currently an optimal PvP Stance and a sub-optimal raid Stance. Also, face the fact that both AST and WHM are a sub-optimal off healer, and SCH is a sub-optimal main healer.

Or even better: people could stop pretending to be game designers suggesting lots of complicated ideas that are harder to program and won't solve a thing. The simple "fix" is take the restriction off and allow AST to change Sects. If that doesn't happen, that's ok too, because AST is viable in any Sect.

You're beating a dead horse suggesting a complete rework for something that works - people have cleared A4S as Noct AST, which proves that it is viable, that it's just sub-optimal, and honestly that's far from an actual problem. SE won't remake a job based on this kind of community complaint because it's too much work for little to no pay off, since only a small percentage of the players actually do this kind of content with the competitive mind set that transforms a sub-optimal decision into an actual problem.
A2S was cleared week one with a Noct. AST/SCH combo (just look for the video on youtube), which is arguably the worst combo possible. I'll say it again: week 1. Diurnal AST/WHM also cleared things week 1 (A1S at least), so no problem there either. And that's before AST got buffed (or un-nerfed, if you guys will). People did the content with the worst combo and with AST in the worst state ever.
To be honest, most people can't clear A3S from not doing mechanics like Digititis properly, so Nocturnal Sect shields or even DPS is far from being a problem - it's just a scapegoat to cover up other issues. Sub-optimal choices are only a problem at the moment because average players are trying to do hard content.
This will probably be fixed with the Midas new design, since SE already admitted they screwed Gordias up. So, again, you guys are overreacting about Nocturnal. I get that some people absolutely want to feel OP or optimal at all times, but let's put that aside and face the fact that if you're not able to do it with any combo at this point, it's on you, not the job.

[Nihility]

The real problem with astro

-if astro is better at white mage spec than white mage "why ever bring a white mage?"
-if astro is better at scholar spec than a scholar "why ever bring a scholar?"
-if astro is not as good as either in either spec and is locked into one "why ever bring astro?"

solution: let them change specs in combat with a reasonable yet limiting cooldown
reason: if you make a class that is sort of halfway in between two other classes flexibility needs to be the defining stand out aspect

[Ersahi]

Or people could stop complaining about it and face the fact that optimal job combos exist in MMOs and that Nocturnal is currently an optimal PvP Stance and a sub-optimal raid Stance. Also, face the fact that both AST and WHM are a sub-optimal off healer, and SCH is a sub-optimal main healer.

You've brought up PvP before, and you need to stop. This is a game built around the PvE, and if PvP concerns are ruining PvE concerns then there is a serious problem.

[FeliAiko]

You're never forced to use Nocturnal Sect. Ever.

I'll be sure to remember that whenever I see two ASTs paired together in an instance.

Only stupid people see a WHM in the party and go all like "oh man, I have to be in Nocturnal!".

Or rather that people made the natural, logical decision that the 'SCH-like stance' - which Nocturnal was advertised as being, not some PVP niche skill that you keep mentioning - would be a better complement to the WHM's toolkit in a party, instead of being a secondary WHM-type. Except the Sect sucks as doing what's intended in a raid setting (which Jobs are designed and later adjusted around in the first place), while Diurnal doesn't, so it wins out.

For raids, they compete for the main healer spot if a party wants to optimize anything, so Diurnal is the default sect to go. You're only using Nocturnal if you want to, which makes the whole "nocturnal needs a buff" point invalid.

Nocturnal needs an adjustment (could call it a buff if you want) simply because it falls short in its intended purpose (a substitute for the SCH role in a party) and lacks any synergy with the AST's toolkit like Diurnal does. How SE decide to do this (if they ever do so) is something we can only speculate on of course, but adding Sect-exclusive benefits to some of their existing skills or just making you able to swap Sects would be one of the options I'd suggest.

You can't swap Sects, that's true - even though you should be able to, because there's absolutley no reason not to be able to do it. Also, I mentioned Titan Egi and Fists of Earth because they're two things you don't use in raid; nowadays, you don't even have much reason to use Ifrit in raids, for crying out loud, so that makes two SMN spells you don't use. Add Tri-Bind to that to make it three. No one is crying

I'd hardly put an ability that's designed to completely change the way you heal on the same level as actual niche, situational skills. If using Titan/Ifrit/Fists locked the respective Jobs into a stance that completely changed the effects of certain abilities in their toolkit, or Noct was like MNKs fists (something to switch to freely at any time) then the comparisons made would be more fitting.

Furthermore there's been plenty of complaints on how bad Tri-Bind is in the past. Hence why SE felt inclined to rename it, then create a better ability under the original name (supposedly they considered making the original Tri-D apply all 3 DoTs but felt it would be too powerful at that level). Also I'd hardly call pointed observations on how poor Nocturnal is and suggestions on how it could be changed (a point you even agree with) as 'crying'. The fact you deem it as such says quite a bit about your perception of things...

And I'll say it again: you're not obliged to use Nocturnal anywhere, even when paired with a WHM, so what's the whole point?

Of course no-one is truly 'obligated' to use Nocturnal, but it would be stupid to have two D.ASTs in a party, or a WHM/WHM-type. This is where going into Nocturnal would be a natural logical decision, except for the fact that the stance is poor so you just get a SCH instead.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Or even better: people could stop pretending to be game designers suggesting lots of complicated ideas that are harder to program and won't solve a thing. The simple "fix" is take the restriction off and allow AST to change Sects. If that doesn't happen, that's ok too, because AST is viable in any Sect.

You're threading on thin ice here with an accusation of others being pretend-game designers while throwing in a proposal yourself in the very same sentence.

Or rather that people made the natural, logical decision that the 'SCH-like stance' - which Nocturnal was advertised as being, not some PVP niche skill that you keep mentioning - would be a better complement to the WHM's toolkit in a party, instead of being a secondary WHM-type. Except the Sect sucks as doing what's intended in a raid setting (which Jobs are designed and later adjusted around in the first place), while Diurnal doesn't, so it wins out.

I'll just throw this in as a source to sustain this:

Tell us a bit more about the two styles of astrologian.
Y: The best way to put it simply is that you'll be able to switch between stances of a pure healer type and a barrier type. One way to think of it is that the healer type would be kind of like white mage, while the shield type would be closer to scholar. However, it would be too strong if you could switch frequently during combat, so there will be restrictions on how often you can change.

Can you give us an example of what the proper utilization would be?
Y: When you're doing a raid dungeon with a white mage, for example, you might use the barrier stance, and you'd use the pure-healer type stance if you were paired with a scholar.

Famitsu interview with Yoshida
Same interview translation found on BlueGartr

[AnduinLynn]

Astro sheilds are super stronk.

[Vlady]

As long as nocturnal is suppose to be the equation that se wanted to be able to fill in for scholars then yes it's not a dead horse but an issue that needs adressing. Se put nocturnal in the astrologian toolkit for a reason then buffed one aspect silly nilly to make nocturnal all but useless in pve. So no it needs to be discussed and reworked.