Astrologian impossible to balance as it is

[TatoRazzino]

I see you bring up this point a lot and I unfortunately have to disagree on a semantic.

I do agree there are many situational ability/spell in the game. Like you've mentioned, Feint, Fists of Earth, Titan Egi. Repose can be added to that list as can Keen Flurry, etc etc.

However, I do feel you're either undervaluing how situational Nocturnal Stance is or overvaluing how important people feel about the very niche abilities/spells.

I feel this way because, while Nocturnal stance is indeed a single ability, it represents an entire healing paradigm.

Nocturnal Stance changes how you play the healer. You don't have HoTs anymore, you now have mitigation spells. Your heals, while slightly more powerful, require you to output more on-demand healing as you don't have more MP efficient HoTs that help normalize healing requirements over the course of a fight. Nocturnal ASTs will consume more MP than Diurnal AST, thus changing how one manages their resources. Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition have less targets to "extend".

When a MNK goes into Fists of Earth, they know they're doing it as a temporary basis to reduce damage received. It doesn't change the fact they're punching something in the face - they're still using the exact same rotation to pummel their foes. Likewise, using Titan-Egi doesn't necessarily mean the SMN is changing their DPS rotation, though it might mean they need to Sustain every so often.

Nocturnal Sect fundamentally changes how the AST heals their party. Unfortunately, it is generally inferior to Diurnal as Diurnal allows you better sustained healing via HoTs, better MP efficiency due to HoTs, higher DPS due to the attack speed, and better options with Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition (extending HoTs or Cards or both).

Ignoring the whole Noct AST vs SCH and focusing on Noct AST vs Diurnal AST, it would be nice if (1) Noct received some polish so the decision isn't so cut and dry regarding Noct versus Diurnal or (2) as you mentioned, a Sect swap that makes use of the full kit AST brings [hopefully in 4.0 when they can flesh out the kit further to incorporate such a dynamic].

Nocturnal represents a healing paradigm, that's accurate. However, it's a paradigm you're not required to use. You use it because you want it, not because you're forced to. That's the key point. Being situational is not reason enough to change how something is built; if any fight required AST and you were forced to use Noct. AST, I'd agree with you, but that's not the case.

If you want to compare AST/SCH, I'm down for it and I've done it in other threads. The first thing is noticing that SCH also has healing paradigms with their summon spells. People overlook the fact that choosing Eos over Selene represents a raid-wide DPS loss to allow the SCH more healing options (and vice-versa), and while it's possible to change it during combat, this consumes resources and GCDs that could be better used in other contexts; what I mean is that the complete toolkit is not accessible to SCH all the time. The shields and emergency heals are the things that are available 100% of the time. AST has similar issues: you have to choose between hp-extension shields and HoTs, but you always have your healing cooldowns, your 2nd tier healing spell and your support toolkit all the time. This allows AST to be able to do more sustained burst healing since the job is not constrained by stacks and cooldowns to do basic stuff like Helios or Benefic II. This is an asset that has been pointed out by the OP and it's one of the reasons AST is hard to balance. This also represents some big differences in style and functionality between AST/SCH.

One of the issues that makes SCH more powerful than AST is the fact that fights are built around the SCH healing toolkit, and because of that all the weaknesses and restrictions of that toolkit are not noticeable. The fact that AST's weaknesses show is another consequence of that. This is something that can't be fixed by changing how Nocturnal Sect works. Nerfing SCH won't work as well.

Another issue is the fact that AST was not built as an off healer, and this is something that bugs me a lot in relation to comments about Nocturnal Sect. In my opinion, any fixes should take into consideration that Nocturnal doesn't need more mitigation or more DPS, but better healing options to compete with WHM and Diurnal as well. AST shouldn't compete with SCH in this matter; the next healer should be off-healer oriented, and then we'll see SCH being left out. This is not new to raiding, and it's not a problem. WHM/AST not being an optimal combo is not a problem, because it's only restricted to raiding, and in this game there has always been a sub-optimal combo. Like in 2.4, when DRG had no raid utility when compared to MNK/NIN and MNK/BRD had a fixed spot because of things only they could do; in this expansion, it's WAR/SCH's turn, and MNK lost its place because 1) DRK can function as well as PLD and add the debuff MNK had, and 2) the traited Mantra lost its value. Basically, not having WAR/SCH/NIN already means your party is sub-optimal.

That's not problem at all; the real problem is that fights were poorly designed, and the optional, optimal combo is being considered mandatory. There's no way to fix that by changing the jobs, only by changing the fights.

That is, if SE doesn't remove the restriction to change sects.

[Vlady]

Nocturnal represents a healing paradigm, that's accurate. However, it's a paradigm you're not required to use. You use it because you want it, not because you're forced to. That's the key point. Being situational is not reason enough to change how something is built; if any fight required AST and you were forced to use Noct. AST, I'd agree with you, but that's not the case.

If you want to compare AST/SCH, I'm down for it and I've done it in other threads. The first thing is noticing that SCH also has healing paradigms with their summon spells. People overlook the fact that choosing Eos over Selene represents a raid-wide DPS loss to allow the SCH more healing options (and vice-versa), and while it's possible to change it during combat, this consumes resources and GCDs that could be better used in other contexts; what I mean is that the complete toolkit is not accessible to SCH all the time. The shields and emergency heals are the things that are available 100% of the time. AST has similar issues: you have to choose between hp-extension shields and HoTs, but you always have your healing cooldowns, your 2nd tier healing spell and your support toolkit all the time. This allows AST to be able to do more sustained burst healing since the job is not constrained by stacks and cooldowns to do basic stuff like Helios or Benefic II. This is an asset that has been pointed out by the OP and it's one of the reasons AST is hard to balance. This also represents some big differences in style and functionality between AST/SCH.

One of the issues that makes SCH more powerful than AST is the fact that fights are built around the SCH healing toolkit, and because of that all the weaknesses and restrictions of that toolkit are not noticeable. The fact that AST's weaknesses show is another consequence of that. This is something that can't be fixed by changing how Nocturnal Sect works. Nerfing SCH won't work as well.

Another issue is the fact that AST was not built as an off healer, and this is something that bugs me a lot in relation to comments about Nocturnal Sect. In my opinion, any fixes should take into consideration that Nocturnal doesn't need more mitigation or more DPS, but better healing options to compete with WHM and Diurnal as well. AST shouldn't compete with SCH in this matter; the next healer should be off-healer oriented, and then we'll see SCH being left out. This is not new to raiding, and it's not a problem. WHM/AST not being an optimal combo is not a problem, because it's only restricted to raiding, and in this game there has always been a sub-optimal combo. Like in 2.4, when DRG had no raid utility when compared to MNK/NIN and MNK/BRD had a fixed spot because of things only they could do; in this expansion, it's WAR/SCH's turn, and MNK lost its place because 1) DRK can function as well as PLD and add the debuff MNK had, and 2) the traited Mantra lost its value. Basically, not having WAR/SCH/NIN already means your party is sub-optimal.

That's not problem at all; the real problem is that fights were poorly designed, and the optional, optimal combo is being considered mandatory. There's no way to fix that by changing the jobs, only by changing the fights.

That is, if SE doesn't remove the restriction to change sects. This would fix everything, because it will allow the

Comparing the changing of scholar fairy pets to being similar to the sects for the astro is not even remotely plausible to compare the two together. Pre knowledge of the fight to swift cast to use the aoe regen does not really use resources that negate from a scholars healing. You can cast the haste buff and swap to whispering wind and back again before the cooldown resets. Just requires knowledge of the fight to maximize its use..

And if you are doing a 4 man dungeon changing stances is sort of pointless as I do not know any dungeons that would make great use of nocturnal shields+duirnal hots rolling and in 8 man content for now a scholar will always have a raid spot. The best thing for the astro at this point is probably forget about having the shields that are in the realm of the scholar and find a new unique mechanic for nocturnal stance. I really feel it is prime to be a offensive stance with no healing potency loss like cleric stance that provides mana reduction costs to damage spells and maybe even heal like disc priest damage to heal a target with a buff applied to it.

[TatoRazzino]

Comparing the changing of scholar fairy pets to being similar to the sects for the astro is not even remotely plausible to compare the two together. Pre knowledge of the fight to swift cast to use the aoe regen does not really use resources that negate from a scholars healing. You can cast the haste buff and swap to whispering wind and back again before the cooldown resets. Just requires knowledge of the fight to maximize its use..

And if you are doing a 4 man dungeon changing stances is sort of pointless as I do not know any dungeons that would make great use of nocturnal shields+duirnal hots rolling and in 8 man content for now a scholar will always have a raid spot. The best thing for the astro at this point is probably forget about having the shields that are in the realm of the scholar and find a new unique mechanic for nocturnal stance. I really feel it is prime to be a offensive stance with no healing potency loss like cleric stance that provides mana reduction costs to damage spells and maybe even heal like disc priest damage to heal a target with a buff applied to it.

Or people could stop complaining about it and face the fact that optimal job combos exist in MMOs and that Nocturnal is currently an optimal PvP Stance and a sub-optimal raid Stance. Also, face the fact that both AST and WHM are a sub-optimal off healer, and SCH is a sub-optimal main healer.

Or even better: people could stop pretending to be game designers suggesting lots of complicated ideas that are harder to program and won't solve a thing. The simple "fix" is take the restriction off and allow AST to change Sects. If that doesn't happen, that's ok too, because AST is viable in any Sect.

You're beating a dead horse suggesting a complete rework for something that works - people have cleared A4S as Noct AST, which proves that it is viable, that it's just sub-optimal, and honestly that's far from an actual problem. SE won't remake a job based on this kind of community complaint because it's too much work for little to no pay off, since only a small percentage of the players actually do this kind of content with the competitive mind set that transforms a sub-optimal decision into an actual problem.
A2S was cleared week one with a Noct. AST/SCH combo (just look for the video on youtube), which is arguably the worst combo possible. I'll say it again: week 1. Diurnal AST/WHM also cleared things week 1 (A1S at least), so no problem there either. And that's before AST got buffed (or un-nerfed, if you guys will). People did the content with the worst combo and with AST in the worst state ever.
To be honest, most people can't clear A3S from not doing mechanics like Digititis properly, so Nocturnal Sect shields or even DPS is far from being a problem - it's just a scapegoat to cover up other issues. Sub-optimal choices are only a problem at the moment because average players are trying to do hard content.
This will probably be fixed with the Midas new design, since SE already admitted they screwed Gordias up. So, again, you guys are overreacting about Nocturnal. I get that some people absolutely want to feel OP or optimal at all times, but let's put that aside and face the fact that if you're not able to do it with any combo at this point, it's on you, not the job.

[Ersahi]

Or people could stop complaining about it and face the fact that optimal job combos exist in MMOs and that Nocturnal is currently an optimal PvP Stance and a sub-optimal raid Stance. Also, face the fact that both AST and WHM are a sub-optimal off healer, and SCH is a sub-optimal main healer.

You've brought up PvP before, and you need to stop. This is a game built around the PvE, and if PvP concerns are ruining PvE concerns then there is a serious problem.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Or even better: people could stop pretending to be game designers suggesting lots of complicated ideas that are harder to program and won't solve a thing. The simple "fix" is take the restriction off and allow AST to change Sects. If that doesn't happen, that's ok too, because AST is viable in any Sect.

You're threading on thin ice here with an accusation of others being pretend-game designers while throwing in a proposal yourself in the very same sentence.

Or rather that people made the natural, logical decision that the 'SCH-like stance' - which Nocturnal was advertised as being, not some PVP niche skill that you keep mentioning - would be a better complement to the WHM's toolkit in a party, instead of being a secondary WHM-type. Except the Sect sucks as doing what's intended in a raid setting (which Jobs are designed and later adjusted around in the first place), while Diurnal doesn't, so it wins out.

I'll just throw this in as a source to sustain this:

Tell us a bit more about the two styles of astrologian.
Y: The best way to put it simply is that you'll be able to switch between stances of a pure healer type and a barrier type. One way to think of it is that the healer type would be kind of like white mage, while the shield type would be closer to scholar. However, it would be too strong if you could switch frequently during combat, so there will be restrictions on how often you can change.

Can you give us an example of what the proper utilization would be?
Y: When you're doing a raid dungeon with a white mage, for example, you might use the barrier stance, and you'd use the pure-healer type stance if you were paired with a scholar.

Famitsu interview with Yoshida
Same interview translation found on BlueGartr

[FeliAiko]

I'll just throw this in as a source to sustain this:

Famitsu interview with Yoshida
Same interview translation found on BlueGartr

Thank you for providing those.

[TatoRazzino]

You're threading on thin ice here with an accusation of others being pretend-game designers while throwing in a proposal yourself in the very same sentence.

Yes, that's true. I don't mind the thin ice thing, because I have a degree in game design and I have been working with game design for the past six years. Some of the people in here may also be designers, but the amount of absurd ideas I see in here show otherwise.

[Galdous]

Yes, that's true. I don't mind the thin ice thing, because I have a degree in game design and I have been working with game design for the past six years. Some of the people in here may also be designers, but the amount of absurd ideas I see in here show otherwise.

And I am in the credits for Diablo 2 as a beta tester from the days of early Battle net and kali but that does not mean my perception is the same as the setup the designers have for the game. That does not make you an expert any more then someone else who has played the game and know the system to a detail for years.

[TatoRazzino]

And I am in the credits for Diablo 2 as a beta tester from the days of early Battle net and kali but that does not mean my perception is the same as the setup the designers have for the game. That does not make you an expert any more then someone else who has played the game and know the system to a detail for years.

True, I can't possibly know exactly what the developers plan to do, not any more than other people. But suggesting a floating moon and copycats of SCH DPS spells for AST while complaining, at the same time, that AST has no unique identity is pretty messed up, if you ask me. Knowing game design in theory and practice, not only as a player or consumer, grants a different insight. People are not worried about balance when they suggest balance ideas; they want their job to be OP, and that's a characteristic of game players. If 90% of the ideas in this forum were taken into consideration, the game would have three jobs that would be repeated, since everyone wants their favorite job to be able to do anything the other jobs do, with different names and animations. So I may not be an expert that can guess what the developers want, but I can have a different point of view and I can sort out lots of ideas that won't work. If you, who experienced game design from a developer point of view, can't do that, that's your problem not mine.

[Zaj_Quilos]

Or even better: people could stop pretending to be game designers suggesting lots of complicated ideas that are harder to program and won't solve a thing. The simple "fix" is take the restriction off and allow AST to change Sects. If that doesn't happen, that's ok too, because AST is viable in any Sect.

Yup. That's like half the threads on the healer page.