Astrologian impossible to balance as it is

[FeliAiko]

Pushing AST towards being a DPS healer like SCH wouldn't work to the Job or Sect's strength. The reason it works for SCH is because they were built on the foundation of a DPS class (ACN), and we're unlikely to see such a set up again for any future job, let alone a healing one. Since Noct's defining trait is the shield, the Sect should be centered around the ways AST can manipulate those shields, leaving Diurnal to be around manipulating their HoTs. The DPS contribution can/should come from the cards, or even the shield itself (e.g. a reflect ability where it inflicts a certain potency of damage back on the attacker until the shield breaks).

[AzureFlare]

The issue is that Astrologian as it is cannot be balanced. It's not a simple matter of increasing potencies (again) or homogenisation among the sect specific abilities (again). Square-Enix has decided to do this twice now: Potency increases and removing sect reliance on Collective Unconsciousness. If a third time would be required, Square-Enix would need to consider the possibility of reworking Astrologian as whole or keep it like this till 4.0 and hopefully the new spells and/or abilities can salvage Nocturnal Sect.

Except the fact AST can't be balanced (true because by nature asymmetrical jobs can't be balanced, again, video games in a nutshell people) has nothing inherently to do with waiting for 4.0 or a rework. Heck, the problem isn't even balance, the problem is that there seems to be measurements with two cups for AST/WHM and for SCH and apparently it is a major issue if we shift some numbers so N.AST doesn't have to be in a huge discomfort until said rework is done.

Your analysis is great and spot on, and then you come with a bunch of hypothetical situations 'if we do x, then y, so no' and semi-rhetorical questions to push forward the need for a rework (which multiple people have already done and encouraged, rightfully so) and somehow drop all thought about even trying to change Nocturnal Sect while we wait due to said situations and questions. From an infrastructural point alone, assuming a regen-healer/mitigating-healer combo is the assumed (best) way to go and using SE's own numbers, that's utterly stupid: you'd make the AST populace compete with the way bigger WHM populace until whenever that rework comes and by far not enough people can fulfill that off-healer spot nearing its potential.

So what if CU suddenly has a 1 minute cooldown in Nocturnal, or Aspected Helios did a 150-200% shield instead, or TD acted like Deployment? Clearly, there's a need for a SCH-like healer more so than a WHM-like healer, and given your extensive analysis, there hardly seems to be an issue giving Nocturnal such a thing since they'll still be behind SCH anyway. So what if an AST has to know their abilities more thoroughly because they differ so much upon sect? Just teach them, put Nocturnal on level 30 instead of tacking it on at level 50 so they get the time to learn. People are already favoring regardless which one is statistically superior anyway. So what if we buff the potencies again, be it for Noct's sake only and only on Noct abilities? Again, just give Noct something so it won't have to spend another half a year (or even worse) struggling to do what a SCH can do while picking their nose and telling the rest of awesome it looks.

And the reason I was comparing SCH 2.X to 3.0 WHM/AST specifically is that SCH 2.X had clearly defined weaknesses/struggles to overcome, just like WHM and AST still do. Many of their newly introduced abilities (and the older reworked ones) overcame those struggles, giving SCH an even bigger amount of comfort while it is the only healer capable to heal by literally following another player after pressing Summon/Summon 2. If you want to speak of identity: what is it that Indomitability, one of the biggest offenders in my opinion, adds to the identity of a SCH? Was SCH really about burst-AoE healing? Did they really need a 400 potency, AoE instant heal that rivals Asylum and Assize, or CU and CO combined in terms of healing output? AST isn't the only offender of breaking identities, but it seems to be the one that gets the most lashing for doing so even from its own players, and that seems to be the be-all-end-all reason to ever buff N.AST more than anything.

N.AST can remain the GCD-heavy, fairy-less SCH with WHM healing abilities it is right now while giving it something to work with for the months to come. It won't have the spectacular oGCD healing SCH has, or the burst-AoE healing WHM has, or the regens WHM has, or the AoE damage SCH has, or the fairy that SCH has, or the superior on-demand mitigation abilities SCH has. But it can have superior single target base healing, superior AoE regular healing, a method to shift DPS to be closer to SCH and paying for those gains by the luxury of having an instant, single-target shield and cards. Just give it something so it can provide the same HPS, regardless it be through mitigation or actual healing, while providing similar raid DPS and fix the identity later. It isn't impossible to shift the two closer towards one another, but again, even if it will take time to do so while preserving more of the precious identity everyone looks at, doesn't mean it should be left in the gutter while said hypothetical rework is being made.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Snip

For one, I am not going to judge whether it can be balanced or not. I do believe the possibility is there, but not as it is - Hence: Astrologian is impossible to balance as it is.

As for the rest, I believe you have missed out on a connection somewhere. There are primarily three issues why Astrologian cannot compete against a Scholar in the supportive healer seat:
Sustained healing (while performing other tasks)
Resource issues
On demand mitigation nowhere as reliable or as potent

There were two scenario's presented for the sustained healing "balance": Either steal the HoT from diurnal or have an external source like a fairy. One steals the identity and the other creates more homogenisation
There was a scenario presented for the on demand mitigation: Simply having more mitigation doesn't solve the other two issues
An issue was presented for MP sustainability: Luminiferous aether is sufficient for the main healer role, but not for the supportive healer role

In whatever potential "solution" lies the problem of...
...Homogenisation
...Said act applies to both sects, it would have made one sect more powerful and potentially shove an entire job out of the picture - Collatoral damage
...Ineffective act of balance for one sect and not make a change as the other issue(s) still remain

Or potentially just ironing both sects flat as a result that only the passives remain. Like what happened with Collective Unconsciousness.

So I'll just repeat again: I don't mind Nocturnal Sect being inferior, as I am very well aware it is impossible to balance Astrologian perfect as it is. Frankly, I don't believe Astrologian will ever be able to fulfill the supportive healer role as well as Scholar or even White Mage with it's current kit and I'm perfectly content with that. It's even in the second sentence of the opening post:

To start off with, this is not a call to buff or nerf either sects. Personally, I'm content with the sects as they are and don't really care of the fact it's inferior to Scholar for it's role. However, hopefully it'll shed some light on why Astrologian can never be balanced properly as it is right now. Warning: There will be no tldr.

[Zaj_Quilos]

Wow. None of this has been said before. What great new insight.

[TatoRazzino]

SMNs can freely swap Egi in battle. MNKs can freely swap Fists in battle. ASTs can freely swap Sects in... oh wait, they can't. That's the difference. The latter two can afford to not be bothered about their skills because they never face scenarios where, depending on the other DPS they get grouped with, they're forced to use one of those said skills full time over their optimal one. Then you go onto saying that having ASTs change Sects would be a good idea, thus undoing whatever defense you were trying to make for Noct.

Also PVP is an afterthought in this game, and is generally seen as an unbalanced mess, so Noct shining there (or rather, A. Benefic) is more a testament to how broken PVP is rather than an endorsement of the Sect in itself.

You're never forced to use Nocturnal Sect. Ever. Only stupid people see a WHM in the party and go all like "oh man, I have to be in Nocturnal!". For raids, they compete for the main healer spot if a party wants to optimize anything, so Diurnal is the default sect to go. You're only using Nocturnal if you want to, which makes the whole "nocturnal needs a buff" point invalid.
You can't swap Sects, that's true - even though you should be able to, because there's absolutley no reason not to be able to do it. Also, I mentioned Titan Egi and Fists of Earth because they're two things you don't use in raid; nowadays, you don't even have much reason to use Ifrit in raids, for crying out loud, so that makes two SMN spells you don't use. Add Tri-Bind to that to make it three. No one is crying. And I'll say it again: you're not obliged to use Nocturnal anywhere, even when paired with a WHM, so what's the whole point?

[Dyvid]

The key issue is Sect on a contradiction in design.
*Nocturnal Aspected effect makes it good to be paired with a WHM but it's 20% healing buff is better for main healer rather than back up.
*Diurnal Aspected is good for main healing but 5% speed buff is good for dps as backup.

Reason Diurnal is default is because it works well in either spot were as Nocturnal doesn't. SE needs to fix one of three things.
*Swap the Sect traits around where Nocturnal is speed buff and Diurnal is heal buff.
*Change Nocturnal Aspect effect so it works with SCH rather than against.
*Allow Sect swapping in combat so you have access to either traits if needed.

[Fevelle]

As a person with all 3 healers on 60 with 200+ gear: AST is fine, just like WHM. SCH is the exception: the one healer job that excels in everything. Do not take SCH as a standard for what a healer should be.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

As a person with all 3 healers on 60 with 200+ gear: AST is fine, just like WHM. SCH is the exception: the one healer job that excels in everything. Do not take SCH as a standard for what a healer should be.

I don't think you've actually read what the topic is about

[CyrilLucifer]

SCH is the exception: the one healer job that excels in everything. Do not take SCH as a standard for what a healer should be.

I agree, to an extent. SCH is more of a problem than AST, yes, and I do believe that its increased AOE healing is partially to blame for this conundrum.

SCH is broken right now and it's interfering with the overall healer balance. I want AST to be successful, but at this point there's nothing we can do to make Noct competitive with SCH because SCH is just too strong. That is the problem - SCH is guaranteed a raid spot simply because it's SCH forcing AST and WHM to fight it out for the remains.

So yes, Lyrica, it does have to deal with this thread, as the topic seems to have shifted to healer balance.

Shifting sects mid-battle is a band-aid that avoids the real problem (and arguably wouldn't be terribly useful, but the ability to have it would be nice). It wouldn't do anything to solve the AST issue.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

snip

Well, do elaborate exactly what makes Scholar so strong that is yet pointed out as what the issues were with Nocturnal sect as a reason that it cannot compete.

Primary issues mentioned in the opening post:
No form of sustained healing while performing other tasks
Unable to sustain itself in resources as opposed to Diurnal Sect