Wish FF14 would transition to FFE job/skill system

[Malzian]

FFE actually feels more like a final fantasy game. I'm not going to defend its grind or lack of story, but its skill and job customization is really nice and would be great to see if FF14 could implement a bit more of that.

Unfortunately, while I agree it is a very rich system... it's also a single-player game and in an MMO that kind of system is killed by two words: Balancing Issues

There's 2 issues that arise when making a system like this in a multiplayer-online game:

First, if you're trying to build a game that works on the 'Trinity' system of Tank/Healer/DPS then you totally destroy it with this type of system. Balancing in this is a nightmare since you have to adjust for every little setup that could possibly come about and it really is entirely unmanageable.

Second, no matter what 'options' you are given for your build, people will show what is mathematically the best build and you will be shunned if you aren't using it hence you really have no options. This is -already- a problem with the Cross-class skill system where specific Cross-class skills are required for specific jobs, and if you choose the wrong ones for whatever reason you're going to be called out on it.

[Taei]

Unfortunately, while I agree it is a very rich system... it's also a single-player game and in an MMO that kind of system is killed by two words: Balancing Issues

BTW, FF explorers can be played singleplayer, but its not a singleplayer game.

[Callback]

Unfortunately, while I agree it is a very rich system... it's also a single-player game and in an MMO that kind of system is killed by two words: Balancing Issues

There's 2 issues that arise when making a system like this in a multiplayer-online game:

First, if you're trying to build a game that works on the 'Trinity' system of Tank/Healer/DPS then you totally destroy it with this type of system. Balancing in this is a nightmare since you have to adjust for every little setup that could possibly come about and it really is entirely unmanageable.

Second, no matter what 'options' you are given for your build, people will show what is mathematically the best build and you will be shunned if you aren't using it hence you really have no options. This is -already- a problem with the Cross-class skill system where specific Cross-class skills are required for specific jobs, and if you choose the wrong ones for whatever reason you're going to be called out on it.

But FFE is built for online multiplayer. Of course it would work as an MMO.

The "trinity" sucks. It has never been good. It only exists because WoW became so popular after taking it and everyone, Squeenix included, has been constantly trying to copy their success despite the fact that the reason WoW even chose to use that old system was because it had been fleshed out in other games and had proven the most functional system back in the days of early broadband. Back then you couldn't do a good combat system in an MMO without lag problems, so they used one that would run mostly automatically with minimal player input required. It's boring, outdated, and needs to go.

The second issue you have still only applies to these WoW clones. Since the gameplay is just obfuscated balancing of several numbers, there is a mathematically optimal solution. In a real game sacrificing damage for more reliable cancels, better block/counter abilities, more retaliation options, iframes, etc. is actually valuable and can lead to smoother fights based on your playstyle.

[Jpec07]

The "trinity" sucks. It has never been good.

I enjoy tanking, am indifferent to healing, and find DPS jobs uninteresting and boring. My roommate enjoys healing, has dabbled in tanking, but also hates how boring DPS is. Our friend enjoys minmaxing and killing things faster than should be possible, feels indifferent about tanking, but doesn't enjoy focusing on keeping us alive. We've all tried the different roles, and we've all found a niche gameplay that we enjoy.

I don't think we'd enjoy an MMO that didn't have at least a trinity system in place.

I disagree with your statement. The trinity has made gameplay in MMOs more enjoyable than any shooter I've played.

EDIT: People are also forgetting that FFXIV is an MMORPG - a Massively Multiplayer Online ROLE-Playing Game. In almost every RPG out there, different characters fit into different roles. They aren't shoehorned or forced, they just have strengths and weaknesses that separate them from everyone else. The "trinity" system actually goes back to traditional tabletop RPGs and even to the original, from which all that we know and love here has grown: Dungeons and Dragons. People play different roles that have different ways of contributing to group success. But people become so damn focused on numbers and efficiency and mathematical equilibrium that they stop playing a game they enjoy, and start working at a job they pay for. There's so much more to FFXIV and even the MMORPG genre in general than just having equilibrium and balance, and I think it would do good for more people to remember that.

EDIT 2: Even in MOBAs and most shooters, different characters have different roles according to their abilities. Go into any match of HotS without a tank or support class, and your team will not last.

[Meraii]

I enjoy tanking, am indifferent to healing, and find DPS jobs droll and boring.

I don't like to be that person, but droll means something similar to unusual or quirky; pretty much the opposite of dull.

I don't think we'd enjoy an MMO that didn't have at least a trinity system in place.

This on the other hand, I agree with. I'm not even sure what other systems would work in MMO's, having not seen anything else. I know some people often talk about a fourth option (support) but I just don't think it'd work that well as it falls too closely to what a healer does to be a class in its own right. Or on here I suppose you have bards which mainly do dps. A support role that would literally be about giving people buffs wouldn't make for engaging gameplay in my opinion, yet its what i see most often suggested when people want to break out of the trinity system.

[Jpec07]

I don't like to be that person, but droll means something similar to unusual or quirky; pretty much the opposite of dull.

Oh, derp. I'd seen it used that way, and didn't think to check. Thanks for keeping me honest!

[DPZ2]

The "trinity" sucks. It has never been good. It only exists because WoW became so popular after taking it and everyone, Squeenix included, has been constantly trying to copy their success ...

Funny, I always thought that the Trinity of Tank/Healer/DPS was developed because otherwise most MMO players would quit after the first dungeon instance when an end-boss threw out a cleave that was higher damage than everyone's health points combined.

If WoW had not become so popular, do you think we would even have MMOs today? It was a pretty small niche market, with only thousands of users playing in any one game.

All that aside -- name a couple of MMORPGs that do not utilize the Trinity [in any fashion] that have any sort of popular following.

Inquiring minds would like to try them out.

[Kurogaea]

All that aside -- name a couple of MMORPGs that do not utilize the Trinity [in any fashion] that have any sort of popular following.

Inquiring minds would like to try them out.

Mortal Online, Wizardry (barely) Tera Online (ehh), Blade and Soul, Onigiri and that's what I can come up with. Actually its kinda rough thinking of a game like that if they have an enmity meter there's ultimately a possiblity of anyone being a tank even though you wont need one. I didn't need a tank in wizardry. I just ran around like a b**** setting traps everywhere stunning enemies and stabbing kneecaps with my little character, BUT I could've had a beefy warrior with me taking the damge while he lured the bosses into my traps and stabbed the crap out of his kneecaps......and the warrior later (hehe, loved that game). Tera is pretty solid without a tank I believe, oh and Elsword, and Dungeon Fighter Online. Those games play just fine without a trinity system. But yeah its pretty difficult to name games like that. Even White Knight Chronicles somewhat had a trinity but you didn't really need one if your character was built well and you knew how to use your character enough as well as the players you were with.

Edit: PSO2, wreck things just fine with my Fists of awesomesauce. X)
Oops, how could I forget The Secret World. My laptop could barely run it so I had to let that one go sadly....cmon PS4 take the good stuff man...
Geez I'm getting senile. Dragons Dogma Online. Took on a troll (or was it an ogre.... it was big) with my assassin and stabbed his head till it went down. Healing items don't have cooldowns luckily X)
Ultima I believe as well? I could be wrong, someone correct me on that.
DayZ
Nether......I think thats it for games I actually tried (besides Ultima, a friend of mine played it)

[Callback]

I enjoy tanking, am indifferent to healing, and find DPS jobs uninteresting and boring. My roommate enjoys healing, has dabbled in tanking, but also hates how boring DPS is. Our friend enjoys minmaxing and killing things faster than should be possible, feels indifferent about tanking, but doesn't enjoy focusing on keeping us alive. We've all tried the different roles, and we've all found a niche gameplay that we enjoy.

I don't think we'd enjoy an MMO that didn't have at least a trinity system in place.

I disagree with your statement. The trinity has made gameplay in MMOs more enjoyable than any shooter I've played.

EDIT: People are also forgetting that FFXIV is an MMORPG - a Massively Multiplayer Online ROLE-Playing Game. In almost every RPG out there, different characters fit into different roles. They aren't shoehorned or forced, they just have strengths and weaknesses that separate them from everyone else. The "trinity" system actually goes back to traditional tabletop RPGs and even to the original, from which all that we know and love here has grown: Dungeons and Dragons. People play different roles that have different ways of contributing to group success. But people become so damn focused on numbers and efficiency and mathematical equilibrium that they stop playing a game they enjoy, and start working at a job they pay for. There's so much more to FFXIV and even the MMORPG genre in general than just having equilibrium and balance, and I think it would do good for more people to remember that.

EDIT 2: Even in MOBAs and most shooters, different characters have different roles according to their abilities. Go into any match of HotS without a tank or support class, and your team will not last.

I never argued against roles. I argued against the trinity, where the game itself forces tanks and healers to be a necessity. It works in something like D&D because that is a turn-based RPG where combat is all about strategy. In an MMO it fails to create an interesting core gameplay loop. Why don't you try an action MMO and see for yourself? Your post makes it sound like you were unaware they existed.

Funny, I always thought that the Trinity of Tank/Healer/DPS was developed because otherwise most MMO players would quit after the first dungeon instance when an end-boss threw out a cleave that was higher damage than everyone's health points combined.

If WoW had not become so popular, do you think we would even have MMOs today? It was a pretty small niche market, with only thousands of users playing in any one game.

All that aside -- name a couple of MMORPGs that do not utilize the Trinity [in any fashion] that have any sort of popular following.

Inquiring minds would like to try them out.

In a non-trinity MMO, that boss' attack would be avoided or blocked by any smart members of the party, and ones that didn't would lose a big chunk of health and learn a lesson not to let it happen again. Getting hit is a punishment for your mistakes, not some default truth you have to accept. Characters can even HAVE some heals, as a way of lowering the impact of those mistakes without invalidating them entirely.


As for just a handful of examples off the top of my head,

Mabinogi
Blade & Soul
Vindictus
DFO
Warframe
Dragon Nest
Black Desert
Lunia(may no longer be around)
Maple Story 2
Shin Megami Tensei: Imagine

All vastly different styles of combat. All great in their own ways. None enforce the trinity.

[Jpec07]

I never argued against roles. I argued against the trinity, where the game itself forces tanks and healers to be a necessity. It works in something like D&D because that is a turn-based RPG where combat is all about strategy. In an MMO it fails to create an interesting core gameplay loop. Why don't you try an action MMO and see for yourself? Your post makes it sound like you were unaware they existed.

The difficulty with a system that doesn't enforce it is that if you show up in a group as a tank, you won't be allowed to tank. People will pull ahead of you, and will ignore any pleas to follow the system. Just thinking about it is giving me flashbacks to dungeons and scenarios in WoW: Mists of Pandaria, where the mobs did so little damage and died so easily that there was no need for any sort of role system. It was incredibly frustrating, because my character was built to be able to survive, and to prevent other people from taking damage, but all of the utility I brought was ignored, and thrown out the window. And especially considering how little damage tanks did natively, I felt utterly useless in that content, which made the game utterly unenjoyable.

Our guild healer experienced the same thing. Classes had so many self-heals that they trivialized most content, and left her Smiting and Penancing to contribute what minuscule amounts of DPS a Disc Priest could. It actually drove us to drop WoW for a while very early in the expansion, because our favorite activity (small group content) was not at all fun for us.

In a system where there is no enforcement of roles, everyone becomes DPS. Tanks aren't allowed to tank, and if they try, they're left behind. Healers aren't allowed to heal, and if they try, they're scolded for not DPSing. Everyone is expected to Zerg rush trash and bosses to death, and there's nothing unique about any of it.