Hardcore is not a dirty word

[Aenarion]

My point being, if XI has a high learning curve, than what exactly would you consider a shallow learning curve? Why don't you explain in detail the complexities of XI, and I'll gladly explain to you how several other games, which you probably consider 'easy-mode' are more complex and harder to master, but simply less time consuming.

Can't agree with you more here, the idea that XI has a high learning curve is laughable, and really only goes to show that the guy has never played any game with a real tough learning curve. Games like Eve Online and X3 etc.'s learning CLIFF makes XI's learning curve looks flat by comparison.

In short, I think your argument boils down to: I have lots of free time and casuals don't, therefore, I'm more hardcore than they are. I think hardcore is one of those words like spirituality, where people really have no clue what they're talking about when they use it.

this, is what many of the current "pro-hardcore" crowd's arguement boils down to, time investment = I haz l33t skillz and iz hardc0re!!11!

[Konachibi]

Good example of different learning curves -

EVE Online battle system:
Select target, lock on, move ship into optimal range, attempt to orbit said target at a speed that will allow you to keep in optimal range, make sure correct ammunition is equipped to counter enemies defences, repeatedly shoot at ship whilst attempting to manage capacitor use, keep resistance modules active to prevent fast loss of shields/armour/hull, possibly juggle between using shield/armour repairs whilst pulsing capacitor batteries to keep the heat on without running out of power.

Final Fantasy XI battle system:
Target enemy, press attack, press attack, use skill, press attack, use skill, use skill, press attack, press attack, use item, press attack....

Which one is more hardcore?

[Jynx]

I don't get people who are so against Time sinks, without them the game would be over in moments. Everything is a time-sink to a extent.

Walking around in a dungeon?
-Time sink

Teleporting
-Time sink

Riding a chocobo
-Time sink

Crafting
-Time sink

Fighting
-Time sink

Going to the lev counter
-Time sink

Walking to levquest destination
-Time sink

You act like anything you deem a "Time sink" had no system attatched to it to make that "Time sink" a reasonable part of the system. It takes time to fight things, developers have stated they have ideal battle times so you can expect to sink a certain ammount of time into a battle for a expected reward. Longer battles will reward more for the most part due to difficulty of the monster.

Dungeons that take longer to access *Rank restrictions* Will have better loot in them due to the time you spent ranking up making it a requirement that the harder to get to dungeon drops better stuff than the easier to get one. Harder dungeons *Of the same rank* Will for the most part probably take longer to complete and the rewards will be greater.

The more you invest in leveling your character the more powerfull he becomes because you invested the time, making him not grow for your investment would be pointless and yes your time is part of that investment.

The second you turn the game on your participating in a "Time sink", the entire game is created to never end, to last forever, never be finished, always have something new to do. If you remove all the "Time sinks" it wont be long before you are standing around with your thumb in your ass wondering what to do next, everything didn't take time to do so it was done fast.

The Darkhold didn't have a time restriction on it, you could walk back in 10 seconds after you finished, result? It took a few days for the dungeon to be mastered and people were pretty much done with it. Let's say they even just let you run the dungeon 4 times a day, every 24hours you got 4 tokens to spend on the dungeon. Just stop crying for a second about your precious time on saturdays only and look objectively at it.

You can only enter it 4 times a day, you can only refine your strategy 4 times a day, you need to be carefull 4 times a day, you will spend less time throwing things at the wall until they stick and actually start thinking, hell maybe you might actually talk about the "Plan" before you run into the darkhold. The dungeon would take longer to master because you can't do it as many times as you want in a day, the content would last longer and the rewards would be harder to get *even if they were 100% drops or something*

You can't tear out all the time sinks in the game without making it a bad game. Every good game has time sinks, even single player games use it to make the game last. Ever "Grinded" your characters in a RPG sure you have, ever walked around town not knowing exactly where to go for a while? Sure you have. Ever taken time to learn how to pull off that Hadoken into shoryuken combo in streefighter? Of course you did.

Time sinks are all a part of "Investment versus Reward" party of what any game uses to make something "Fun" or "Rewarding" it's not "Fun" when there is no challenge to it, it's not as rewarding when it's easier to do it becomes cheap and pointless.

I think I need to fine this idea elsewhere and come back to it, but I feel it's one of the big things missing from XIV right now, you don't have to invest much to see amazing returns, if I was investing money I'd love it but I'm investing my time and not getting anything substantial back. Those amazing returns feel pointless when I did next to nothing to earn them.

[Aenarion]

Good example of different learning curves -

EVE Online battle system:
Select target, lock on, move ship into optimal range, attempt to orbit said target at a speed that will allow you to keep in optimal range, make sure correct ammunition is equipped to counter enemies defences, repeatedly shoot at ship whilst attempting to manage capacitor use, keep resistance modules active to prevent fast loss of shields/armour/hull, possibly juggle between using shield/armour repairs whilst pulsing capacitor batteries to keep the heat on without running out of power.

Final Fantasy XI battle system:
Target enemy, press attack, press attack, use skill, press attack, use skill, use skill, press attack, press attack, use item, press attack....

Which one is more hardcore?

and that's just solo 1v1 fight, in a squad engagement you have to make instant tactical decisions on the enemy ship types, possible loadouts, while checking for local or directional scanner to spot possible reinforcement/ambush etc. And we're not even talking about how to hunt and lock down your potential targets in the first place, or large fleet engagements where you then have to deal with strategic level decisions on fleet resource allocation.

[Konachibi]

And now not only is hardcore this weeks buzzword, but so it 'timesink'.

[Aenarion]

I don't get people who are so against Time sinks, without them the game would be over in moments. Everything is a time-sink to a extent.

It's not an issue of people are against time sinks, after all as you say, without any time sink most games would be over quite quickly. Much of the disagreement is in the degree and amount of time sinks, whether real or perceived, between the different camps.

From what I've seen, a lot of the "casual" camp are under the impression that the "hardcore" camp's idea to improve the game is to throw as much time sink as they possibly can at it, and then tack on a few more for good measure. Whether that's true or not, only those posters know, but that's how the casual side perceives it as. Of course, the casuals then says that RL commitments and other things makes such things impractical for them, and the hardcore crowd counters by claiming the other side only wants instant gratification and nothing else.

Basically, it's starting to turn into what the democrats and republican's are doing these days, fun :P

[Konachibi]

and that's just solo 1v1 fight, in a squad engagement you have to make instant tactical decisions on the enemy ship types, possible loadouts, while checking for local or directional scanner to spot possible reinforcement/ambush etc. And we're not even talking about how to hunt and lock down your potential targets in the first place, or large fleet engagements where you then have to deal with strategic level decisions on fleet resource allocation.

Indeed, when I played it I was a tackler so I was flying an Amarr Interceptor packed to the gills with lock-down modules and ways of preventing the enemy running away, the weapon sockets had short-range rockets in to shoot off any drones they set on me.

Enter fight > Activate micro warp drive > orbit enemy around 15k, DO NOT get under 10k distance > activate warp scrambler + stasis webifier > lock each drone chasing me down and blow them up whilst trying to speed-tank against any incoming damage whilst moving at 20,000 metres a second > while this is going on, pay close attention any ship that comes within proximity of me to make sure an enemy interceptor isn't about to shut off my microwarp drive > manage capacitor usage so my microwarpdrive doesn't eat all my power, since running out of power would leave me almost stationary AND shut off all lock-down modules on the target.

That's tackling, and honestly it's the easiest job a pilot can have in fleet fights, but it's amazingly complex.

And it's not just that, but whilst it's all going on there's this little voice in the back of my head whispering, "If you screw this up you and your ship goes boom. You don't get that ship or any parts of it back, you have to go out and get a new one." EVE is merciless in the fact that the penalty for death was actually losing the thing you use to play the game. You then had to purchase a new one, if you didn't have the money you had to resort back to your starter ship and practically start the game from scratch again.

I had to have an understanding of orbiting 'slingshot' effect, knowledge of optimal range vs. rocket travel time vs. rocket explosion velocity plus memorising what drones are weakest against what variety of rocket (there's about 6 varieties of each), knowing what kind of speed I can do before the ships velocity will negatively effect rocket effectiveness, knowing how much capacitor each module uses so I know if I can leave one on or pulse it at intervals.

To me, being able to manage that kind of stuff all at once every time you enter a fight is hardcore. It's an enormous learning cliff that requires the player to do more than just play the game, they need to learn nearly all the mechanics for their ship, the modules, the weaponry, velocity, resistances, skill books and being able to recognise how percentages can enormously affect things.

There's no timesink there, except when you first begin the game and have to build up skills and money to buy the things you want/need. Once that part is over, there's only the moment, many things are never planned out. You could be flying along on your way to do a mission and be ambushed by a group of pirate players. From that point on there is no timesink, there is no long drawn out activity where you have to camp, there is just you, them, and that moment.

So if EVE is hardcore for it's complexity and in-depth operation, that would mean in comparison, fantasy MMO's don't even register on the hardcore scale.

[Aenarion]

And now not only is hardcore this weeks buzzword, but so it 'timesink'.

immersion was last week, this week is hardcore/time sink, wonder what next week's will be :P

[Jynx]

Here I was thinking Timesink would be next weeks but I appear to have made an issue of it myself.

[Konachibi]

immersion was last week, this week is hardcore/time sink, wonder what next week's will be :P

Probably 'travel-time' once chocobos and airships come out.