Hardcore is not a dirty word

[Konachibi]

Good example of different learning curves -

EVE Online battle system:
Select target, lock on, move ship into optimal range, attempt to orbit said target at a speed that will allow you to keep in optimal range, make sure correct ammunition is equipped to counter enemies defences, repeatedly shoot at ship whilst attempting to manage capacitor use, keep resistance modules active to prevent fast loss of shields/armour/hull, possibly juggle between using shield/armour repairs whilst pulsing capacitor batteries to keep the heat on without running out of power.

Final Fantasy XI battle system:
Target enemy, press attack, press attack, use skill, press attack, use skill, use skill, press attack, press attack, use item, press attack....

Which one is more hardcore?

[Aenarion]

Good example of different learning curves -

EVE Online battle system:
Select target, lock on, move ship into optimal range, attempt to orbit said target at a speed that will allow you to keep in optimal range, make sure correct ammunition is equipped to counter enemies defences, repeatedly shoot at ship whilst attempting to manage capacitor use, keep resistance modules active to prevent fast loss of shields/armour/hull, possibly juggle between using shield/armour repairs whilst pulsing capacitor batteries to keep the heat on without running out of power.

Final Fantasy XI battle system:
Target enemy, press attack, press attack, use skill, press attack, use skill, use skill, press attack, press attack, use item, press attack....

Which one is more hardcore?

and that's just solo 1v1 fight, in a squad engagement you have to make instant tactical decisions on the enemy ship types, possible loadouts, while checking for local or directional scanner to spot possible reinforcement/ambush etc. And we're not even talking about how to hunt and lock down your potential targets in the first place, or large fleet engagements where you then have to deal with strategic level decisions on fleet resource allocation.

[Konachibi]

and that's just solo 1v1 fight, in a squad engagement you have to make instant tactical decisions on the enemy ship types, possible loadouts, while checking for local or directional scanner to spot possible reinforcement/ambush etc. And we're not even talking about how to hunt and lock down your potential targets in the first place, or large fleet engagements where you then have to deal with strategic level decisions on fleet resource allocation.

Indeed, when I played it I was a tackler so I was flying an Amarr Interceptor packed to the gills with lock-down modules and ways of preventing the enemy running away, the weapon sockets had short-range rockets in to shoot off any drones they set on me.

Enter fight > Activate micro warp drive > orbit enemy around 15k, DO NOT get under 10k distance > activate warp scrambler + stasis webifier > lock each drone chasing me down and blow them up whilst trying to speed-tank against any incoming damage whilst moving at 20,000 metres a second > while this is going on, pay close attention any ship that comes within proximity of me to make sure an enemy interceptor isn't about to shut off my microwarp drive > manage capacitor usage so my microwarpdrive doesn't eat all my power, since running out of power would leave me almost stationary AND shut off all lock-down modules on the target.

That's tackling, and honestly it's the easiest job a pilot can have in fleet fights, but it's amazingly complex.

And it's not just that, but whilst it's all going on there's this little voice in the back of my head whispering, "If you screw this up you and your ship goes boom. You don't get that ship or any parts of it back, you have to go out and get a new one." EVE is merciless in the fact that the penalty for death was actually losing the thing you use to play the game. You then had to purchase a new one, if you didn't have the money you had to resort back to your starter ship and practically start the game from scratch again.

I had to have an understanding of orbiting 'slingshot' effect, knowledge of optimal range vs. rocket travel time vs. rocket explosion velocity plus memorising what drones are weakest against what variety of rocket (there's about 6 varieties of each), knowing what kind of speed I can do before the ships velocity will negatively effect rocket effectiveness, knowing how much capacitor each module uses so I know if I can leave one on or pulse it at intervals.

To me, being able to manage that kind of stuff all at once every time you enter a fight is hardcore. It's an enormous learning cliff that requires the player to do more than just play the game, they need to learn nearly all the mechanics for their ship, the modules, the weaponry, velocity, resistances, skill books and being able to recognise how percentages can enormously affect things.

There's no timesink there, except when you first begin the game and have to build up skills and money to buy the things you want/need. Once that part is over, there's only the moment, many things are never planned out. You could be flying along on your way to do a mission and be ambushed by a group of pirate players. From that point on there is no timesink, there is no long drawn out activity where you have to camp, there is just you, them, and that moment.

So if EVE is hardcore for it's complexity and in-depth operation, that would mean in comparison, fantasy MMO's don't even register on the hardcore scale.