PLD 4.0

[Link594]

Just a few notes on these:
1. SB potency wouldn't necessarily be overpowered, especially at such a low cleave potency, even if its main potency were left the same. Moreover, you're going to lose out more than you're thinking here by shifting 25 potency from SB to RA to compensate, just because RA has no enmity modifier. Definitely a fan of all cleave-looking abilities cleaving, though, and SB seems the most popular choice among GLD abilities of late.
2. One of things that's interesting about GLD/PLD oGCDs is that they all contribute identical single-target potency per second at the moment (150 per 15, 250 per 25, 300 per 30), if used ideally (full health SW, Swipe used instantly upon CD refresh). CoS is already the strongest oGCD, even in single target, just because it has none of the limitations of the other two.
3. If it dealt damage, it would also break CCs.


2. That would be pretty OP at that point unless average block chance were reduced to compensate, which would then just give you a feeling of being half-assed whenever Bulwark is on CD, especially if blocking were more important to GLDs/PLDs.
3. Well, it is the same TP cost and potency, basically, as One-Ilm Punch. But, it already comes with a stun, which is practically taking up to 6 seconds off all its buffs anyways.

3. Element aside, I'm not sure why a 10%HP shield would feel unlike a Knight or Paladin.

1. It makes no sense for a weaponskill to generate flat TP. At that point you should just reduce its cost instead. The same could be said for Shield Swipe if it was made a viable weaponskill at below-average TP cost. Aside from that though, if you allowed blocking for all magic attacks, Swipe still wouldn't balance PLD TP-generation specifically around physical fights, which would otherwise be the main downside of this.

The problem with the cleave is that you don't want people to leave out the 3rd combo ability just to increase their DPS in AoE scenarios. With 175 on the target and 50 on 2 aditional targets, Rage of Halone would be better because its improved potency would be 285 as opposed to Savage Blade cleave 275.
You do lose out a little when you are doing RA combo because of the enmity modifier, but if you just use Halone for enmity, you don't lose out there.

You do have a good point about the CoS being too strong, for single target. Maybe PLD could use a buff? Can't give you an argument other PLD could use a buff, but I don't know how much stronger this would be and the impact it could have vs other tanks' DPS. Would have to be tested.

Good point about Flash, I wouldn't like for it to do damage either, would rather have the Savage Blade cleave or a better CoS.

For Bulwark, you can just reduce the block percentage from 60% to 50% or 40% to make it a little less stronger for a more active ability. Maybe increase block by 40% with a CD of 60 sec? I'm sure with testing and tuning you could make it work.

For Shield Slam, good point. I'm also not sure how much of an impact it would have in PvP.

The 10% HP shield doesn't feel unlike a Paladin, its just that the stone element does. If it didn't have an element similar to Protect, I wouldn't have a problem.

For TP Management, you have a good point. I just feel like you would just be delaying the amount of time it takes to run out of TP. Running out of TP really sucks, and I wish there was a way to effectively restore it without just spamming Flash or casting spells lol.

Didn't quote the whole post, just the things I addressed and commented on.

[Shurrikhan]

snip

To be honest, I kind of like the idea of that choice (of going just for Savage Blade each time for cleave priority). And if you're going for some manner of AoE parity, it would need to be stronger still, and/or truly allow that choice. You could always mess with GLD/PLD internal mechanics as well. I played around with some PLD cleave ideas a while back, listed in the signature if you're interested (toggleable weaponskill cleave on all Sword Oath attacks, and finally settled on Shield Swipe cleave in Shield Oath - see the "3.2 patchnotes I'd like to see" section). So many options for this stuff.

Heck, just imagine if we took GLD's fast-hitting motif and actually made Fast Blade have a shortened weaponskill recast, increased Riot Blade's MP return and either slapped on a debuff-extender (for Heavy, Slows, and/or Paralyze) or a light, short bleed [Goring could then cleave-extend all bleeds you caused in addition to bleeding the main target], and Savage Blade was a 200-potency cleave. Either improve the current mana uses slightly or give us another offensive, possibly AoE, option to spend mana on. Now you'd really have a choice in where to end your combo.

As for Bulwark, I feel like this would reduce the gap, which is good, but the same time, we do of course still want it to be noticeable. I'm not sure without trying to create a variety of situations/simulations in my head just what block rate increase, for how long, and how frequently, would feel best, or if it'd be good to steal some ability value off Rampart, etc., to support that. As long as Yoshi keeps to his statement that magic will never be blockable, though, I'd be much less comfortable with the idea of siphoning strength from more reliable and un-niched mitigation tools to support a physical-only one, even if essential to internal mechanics (through blocks).

[Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on shield balance at the moment, given that Shelltron favors towers, average mitigation favors kites, and if Swipe (if it were both worthwhile and without a CD, such as if it were a 230-potency weaponskill) favors bucklers? Does that basically work already, in your opinion, or should each of those abilities have an internal balance to favor all shield types more equally?]

[Link594]

snip

Wow, lots of stuff to reply to.

As for the first point, I don't like the idea of ignoring the glowing 3rd ability and just alternate between 2 abilities for cleave. I think you should finish the combo so you are pressing more buttons and not breaking combos. Breaking combos should feel punishing imo.

I think a really good idea would be to have another 3rd combo ability called Whirling Blade or Whirlwind that just does AoE all around you and has a spin attack animation that follows Savage Blade.

I will definitely check out the link tomorrow and get back to you, but I have to sleep to go to work tomorrow

For Bulwark, none of my suggestions would work unless magic attacks are blockable, because siphoning from rampart to make Bulwark better would be a huge no-no since Rampart affects magical attacks and Bulwark doesn't. You would definitely have to have different iterations of Bulwark and test them all to see which feels best though. I think a 90 sec Bulwark with an increase of 50% block rate for 15 sec would be fine but I obviously have no idea until you test it and make sure its balanced in relation to the other tanks. And then make Rampart have a longer CD to compensate a more available Bulwark of course. You can even change Shield Oath to instead increase block chance by 20% instead of flatly reducing it.

IMO, I feel like WAR should be the king of physical mitigation, DRK the king of magical mitigation, and PLD being a middle of the road mitigation and I think magical blocking and a focus on blocking would be the best way to do that. It also makes our playstyle focused on blocking more unique.

I would hope that Yoshi sees that magic blocking is not that outlandish, and it fits the fantasy of the class. Paladins in WoW can block magic attacks through a talent called Holy Shield (sounds familiar?), and I always thought it fits the lore because Paladins are supposed to be these holy warriors that can utilize magic to defend themselves against magic. FF PLDs use MP, and have these holy abilities such as Flash and CoS, Hallowed Ground and Spirits Within so it makes sense.

As for Shield Balance, I think that we shouldn't complicate shield types because we don't want to make the class more in depth then the other tanking classes. It wouldn't be fair to them lol. I think they should have a slight difference but not a noticeable difference, similar to racial stats. Another point to make is you can have a buckler equipped but glamoured to a tower, and then the graphic isn't matching the shield type bonus anymore. So, it would be nice if there is a slight difference, but I wouldn't want it to be meta-defining so PLDs are this class that has more depth to it when it comes to weapon selection then WAR or DRK. I mean we already are the only job that has off hands. Let's not abuse it lol

I'll prob repost my updated wishlist later updated with your feedback, and I'll take a look at the link before I do so I'll keep that in mind.

[Shurrikhan]

Wow, lots of stuff to reply to.

(1) As for the first point, I don't like the idea of ignoring the glowing 3rd ability and just alternate between 2 abilities for cleave. I think you should finish the combo so you are pressing more buttons and not breaking combos. Breaking combos should feel punishing imo.

I think a really good idea would be to have another 3rd combo ability called Whirling Blade or Whirlwind that just does AoE all around you and has a spin attack animation that follows Savage Blade.

(2) IMO, I feel like WAR should be the king of physical mitigation, DRK the king of magical mitigation, and PLD being a middle of the road mitigation and I think magical blocking and a focus on blocking would be the best way to do that. It also makes our playstyle focused on blocking more unique.

(3) I would hope that Yoshi sees that magic blocking is not that outlandish, and it fits the fantasy of the class. Paladins in WoW can block magic attacks through a talent called Holy Shield (sounds familiar?), and I always thought it fits the lore because Paladins are supposed to be these holy warriors that can utilize magic to defend themselves against magic. FF PLDs use MP, and have these holy abilities such as Flash and CoS, Hallowed Ground and Spirits Within so it makes sense.

(4) You can even change Shield Oath to instead increase block chance by 20% instead of flatly reducing [damage taken].

(5) As for Shield Balance, I think that we shouldn't complicate shield types because we don't want to make the class more in depth then the other tanking classes. It wouldn't be fair to them lol.

(2) It's actually the blocking, as compared to the more general nothing's-gotta-bring-me-down/pain-suppression/all-form mitigation of the Inner Beast motif that makes me think of PLD as the most physical of the tanks, and WAR as the middle of the road. I personally kind of like it that way; I just think PLDs should, holy/curative/light-magic user and all, be able to block some magic damage, reducing that gap. (That's just talking motif though; add Storm's Path vs. Rage of Halone and there's no contest, for better or worse.) Depending on how blocking is handled in regards to magic though, that would be much less the case, yeah.

(3) At any rate, you'd think it might make sense for a PLD to at least be able to block magic during Bulwark. But alas, no job traits. My favorite way to handle it is complex but, imo, realistic. Shields function against purely aetherial but projected (launched from caster to target) magic based on shield size (towers best), much like actually blocking a wave of fire against you; what's hidden won't be hit, so maximize that area. Just about anything should be able to block manifest magic (e.g. Stone). Nothing can block non-projected magic (anything that starts/appears directly in/on the target).

(4) Lately I've been looking at a lot of different ways to sort of get the same effectiveness out of Shield Oath without it being quite so basic, in combination with similar looks at Grit. Honestly, I really like the idea of stance-dancing, almost to the point where I feel like it wouldn't especially hurt if, in a fight with varying damage levels, a tank might stance-dance not just to get more dps out, but even to improve his overall defense.

[Outlandish ideas - just food for thought]

(This is kind of similar to when we thought DRK might be a life-tapping tank, spending life where healers would otherwise be overhealing in order to improve defense across times where healing needs would be uncomfortably intense / bolstering defense when it matters more so that healers can maintain DoTs, etc. Could be hell to heal, essentially, or an absolute breeze. In this case though it'd just be by generating, say, a parry- or parry-strength related resource or something similar but with less RNG-ness, while out of Grit, and then popping those into a sort of parry nuke when/by returning to Grit, almost like you were spending that mana not just on a stance, but on a variable shield of sorts.)

In PLD's case this stance-dancing bit came out as sort of an Oath resource, where Shield improved general damage mitigation, blocking, and could just outright make you a shield-based badass. (Think Shield Bash nukes.) The effects of either Oath would linger a bit after 'swapping', manually convertable through charging the spells themselves. While charging, Sword Oath channels a heavy on the target while building up attack speed and preparing bonus potency for your next oGCD. Overstacking the bonus potency unleashes it as a single strong cleave. Shield Oath channels a heavy on all nearby enemies while increasing block chance and reducing damage taken, drawing said enemies towards you at the end of the charge. Overstacking the bonus block chance automatically procs your block. Either charge can be rushed to reach the overstack bonus sooner by hitting the ability again while charging (spends extra mana, getting the short-term bonuses faster, but giving less of the long-term bonuses; these will instead generate / shift over time. Hitting any weaponskil would queue it for a typical 1-GCD or 2-GCD charge (max), hitting anything else twice ends the charge at that point and performs the attack, and moving of course ends the charge at that point). Charge speeds scale with (Skill) Speed, which should be a single stat with Spell Speed anyways...

(5) But... but, then we'd HAVE to make them all awesome!

[Link594]

(2) It's actually the blocking, as compared to the more general nothing's-gotta-bring-me-down/pain-suppression/all-form mitigation of the Inner Beast motif that makes me think of PLD as the most physical of the tanks, and WAR as the middle of the road. I personally kind of like it that way; I just think PLDs should, holy/curative/light-magic user and all, be able to block some magic damage, reducing that gap. (That's just talking motif though; add Storm's Path vs. Rage of Halone and there's no contest, for better or worse.) Depending on how blocking is handled in regards to magic though, that would be much less the case, yeah.

(3) At any rate, you'd think it might make sense for a PLD to at least be able to block magic during Bulwark. But alas, no job traits. My favorite way to handle it is complex but, imo, realistic. Shields function against purely aetherial but projected (launched from caster to target) magic based on shield size (towers best), much like actually blocking a wave of fire against you; what's hidden won't be hit, so maximize that area. Just about anything should be able to block manifest magic (e.g. Stone). Nothing can block non-projected magic (anything that starts/appears directly in/on the target).

(4) Lately I've been looking at a lot of different ways to sort of get the same effectiveness out of Shield Oath without it being quite so basic, in combination with similar looks at Grit. Honestly, I really like the idea of stance-dancing, almost to the point where I feel like it wouldn't especially hurt if, in a fight with varying damage levels, a tank might stance-dance not just to get more dps out, but even to improve his overall defense.

[Outlandish ideas - just food for thought]

(This is kind of similar to when we thought DRK might be a life-tapping tank, spending life where healers would otherwise be overhealing in order to improve defense across times where healing needs would be uncomfortably intense / bolstering defense when it matters more so that healers can maintain DoTs, etc. Could be hell to heal, essentially, or an absolute breeze. In this case though it'd just be by generating, say, a parry- or parry-strength related resource or something similar but with less RNG-ness, while out of Grit, and then popping those into a sort of parry nuke when/by returning to Grit, almost like you were spending that mana not just on a stance, but on a variable shield of sorts.)

In PLD's case this stance-dancing bit came out as sort of an Oath resource, where Shield improved general damage mitigation, blocking, and could just outright make you a shield-based badass. (Think Shield Bash nukes.) The effects of either Oath would linger a bit after 'swapping', manually convertable through charging the spells themselves. While charging, Sword Oath channels a heavy on the target while building up attack speed and preparing bonus potency for your next oGCD. Overstacking the bonus potency unleashes it as a single strong cleave. Shield Oath channels a heavy on all nearby enemies while increasing block chance and reducing damage taken, drawing said enemies towards you at the end of the charge. Overstacking the bonus block chance automatically procs your block. Either charge can be rushed to reach the overstack bonus sooner by hitting the ability again while charging (spends extra mana, getting the short-term bonuses faster, but giving less of the long-term bonuses; these will instead generate / shift over time. Hitting any weaponskil would queue it for a typical 1-GCD or 2-GCD charge (max), hitting anything else twice ends the charge at that point and performs the attack, and moving of course ends the charge at that point). Charge speeds scale with (Skill) Speed, which should be a single stat with Spell Speed anyways...

(5) But... but, then we'd HAVE to make them all awesome!

Sorry for the late reply, been a little busy but I definitely wanted to keep the conversation going.

(2) I'm not quite sure PLD is the most physical of tanks. I feel like WAR and PLD were designed to be similar because back when they came out, they were the only tanks.

I'm just saying the PLD fantasy would be better for magical mitigation due to the whole holy warrior motif and that WAR would be best for physical mitigation due to the whole tough guy theme. All this is my opinion though, and I can definitely see various arguments for their niches due to their fantasy.

(3) IMO for simplicities sake (remember I'm the guy who said not to overcomplicate the class) I would just categorize it into 2 catergories. Projected magic and non-projected magic. Blockable magics would include things like Stone, Fire, and Blizzard, and non-projected magic would be unblockable magics like Aero, Paralysis, and Banish.

(4) Stance dancing would be nice and its also why I included in my little wish list that the Oaths don't break you combos so it would be easier to shift. You can even argue that they be off the GCD.