MCH, still as bad?

[RiceisNice]

I suppose in that sense my comments on effort compared to bard don't hold (in raids at least), so I'll retract that :P I don't think that the difficulty in adapting cooldown usage is extreme enough to put off someone, I guess it comes down to playstyle preference though; a lot of people find MCH more "fluid" than Bard despite Wildfire's centralising nature.

I'd argue that MCH is closer to 2.0's BRD gameplay with the instant casts and amount of oGCD weaving they can do, sans the wildfire bursts. But at the same time, those instant casts kind of defeat the point of GB in the first place. Beyond the ammo off cooldown and wildfire, you're just more focused on looking for procs to use, much like BRD spamming heavy shot and using SS when it falls off or it gets a proc.

And I guess a turret is a thing too, but there's so very little interaction with it almost feels as involved as ninja poisons.

BRD on the other hand, feels like a mess to play because WM feels like it's just patched on with no consideration of their original gameplay (esp since it involves an oGCD resetting it's cooldown).

[Sidra]

If you run a search for the 75th percentile on fflogs in each of the savage fights, MCH are pulling better numbers than Bard at this point on A1, A3, and A4. Bards AOE is a little stronger with RoD procs. MCH are also outperforming on Thordan

http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7#boss=18
http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7#boss=20
http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7#boss=21
http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/4#boss=1029

I feel like saying Bard single target dps is better is simply inaccurate. If you are talking about party dps via support then I agree Bards offensive support is better. But to say the Bard itself does more single target dps on its own than MCH is wrong, it does less than a MCH.

[RiceisNice]

If you run a search for the 75th percentile on fflogs in each of the savage fights, MCH are pulling better numbers than Bard at this point on A1, A3, and A4. Bards AOE is a little stronger with RoD procs. MCH are also outperforming on Thordan

I feel like saying Bard single target dps is better is simply inaccurate. If you are talking about party dps via support then I agree Bards offensive support is better. But to say the Bard itself does more single target dps on its own than MCH is wrong, it does less than a MCH.

Aren't those averages though? If you're looking at the min/max, the BRD min is significantly lower than the MCH at times (which weighs down the average), and there's a lot more BRD parses compared to MCH(whom is completely under represented), during of which the max of MCH is consistently lower than the max of a BRD. It's hard to get a good average of MCH if it's under represented, but the max recorded output of MCH is consistently lower than that of a BRD.

[Sidra]

It's a percentile, so basically the DPS it shows would the the number you'd have to place 250th/1,000 or 25th out of 100 (using whatever volume of parses it has for the last 2 weeks). On the A1 for example, over the last 2 weeks there have been 365 MCH completions uploaded, and 1,319 Bard parses. Overall volume shouldn't make a difference in the comparison since looking at percentile is a good way to equalize them, as placing 150th out of 300 is about the same as placing 500 out of 1,000. The higher the number the more accurate it becomes. But that's a substantial amount of parses in both cases that while not perfect, it's pretty good data.

Now, you are also correct in that in each case, the single max best parse is a BRD. So take with that what you will. Regardless, on Average Machinists are outputting higher damage. Also interesting if you use 50th percentile instead of 75th (basically using the true middle performance as opposed to 75th which could be considered a very good performance (my wording, its just opinion)) MCH has a larger gap than it does at the higher levels of play.

eg A1 75th percentile: MCH 1,168 BRD 1,150
50th percentile: MCH: 1,066 BRD: 1,025

Considering MCH is generally seen as more difficult to play, that’s actually a bit surprising to me. I by no means claim to have all the answers, or be the ultimate analyzer of the data. I am just pointing out that with all the “Bards do higher dps” sentiment out there, the data is not necessarily clearly pointing that out to be the case.

[RiceisNice]

Considering MCH is generally seen as more difficult to play, that’s actually a bit surprising to me. I by no means claim to have all the answers, or be the ultimate analyzer of the data. I am just pointing out that with all the “Bards do higher dps” sentiment out there, the data is not necessarily clearly pointing that out to be the case.

It's hard to take the values for face value in favor of MCH because MCH does not have a very large sample size (which means an inaccurate average) compared to BRD (who has a more accurate average, but that also gets affected by their min-recorded dps) when you're looking at percentile averages. If anything, it's just as about as credible as taking the maximum BRD DPS and objectively saying that BRD is more DPS than MCH.

[Gameplayzero]

I regard its difficulty more in terms of...fight knowledge I guess?

I understand haha. Thank you for the mature explanation despite my post possibly coming across as a bit snarky (though that wasn't what I intended it to be lol).

[UBERHAXED]

It's hard to take the values for face value in favor of MCH because MCH does not have a very large sample size (which means an inaccurate average) compared to BRD (who has a more accurate average, but that also gets affected by their min-recorded dps) when you're looking at percentile averages. If anything, it's just as about as credible as taking the maximum BRD DPS and objectively saying that BRD is more DPS than MCH.

No... The former is statistically sound and the latter is not. There is no inaccuracy to the average. MCH is not underrepresented, there are actually more players playing bard (due to bard being out 4 years ago and machinist 6 months), if anything they over represent MCH since I'm sure there are more than 10 times the amount of players playing the older classes individually than the newer classes individually.

[RinchanNau]

Considering MCH is generally seen as more difficult to play, that’s actually a bit surprising to me. I by no means claim to have all the answers, or be the ultimate analyzer of the data. I am just pointing out that with all the “Bards do higher dps” sentiment out there, the data is not necessarily clearly pointing that out to be the case.

But is it more difficult to play? I think some people just want to make their job sound like a great challenge compared to the alternatives. You can take this with a grain of salt considering I've really only been putting effort into MCH for maybe 1 1/2 months. But I seem to pull respectable numbers from what I can tell. I find MCH, for the most part, a little easier than BRD. I explained some of the reasons earlier in the this thread. And when I say that I don't mean to say that BRD is so much more complicated and challenging. Not at all. They're overall probably similar in difficulty. Each jobs with its own ups and downs.

The main challenge I find with MCH at my current skill level is identifying procs with no ammo. I admittedly miss a few here and there. And I've had my turret cleaved more than a few times in A3S. I've gotten better about replacing my turret asap in those scenarios, but it helps to have communication from other raid members in case I miss it. The other thing is if you're pushing legs much faster than progression pace in A4S. Managing CDs at that time becomes a little annoying. Instead of popping wildfire at the beginning of each leg you may have to wait until after adds if you want your wildfire to do much of anything. Takes some adjustment if you're not used to it. But it does for any job.

eg A1 75th percentile: MCH 1,168 BRD 1,150
50th percentile: MCH: 1,066 BRD: 1,025

BRDs in A1S should pull ahead of equally skilled/geared MCH with the same comp if they are keeping both Oppressors dotted at all times due to BRD dot potency alone. If they're not doing this, then yea, it's not difficult for a MCH to pull equal or slightly better numbers. One 30s dot is easier to manage than two 18s dots. The dot upkeep on BRD, especially while handling adds, requires more thought to GCD management. And if you drop your dots on BRD 2 GCDs are required to correct the error. Or 4 if you drop dots on both Oppressors. Much greater potency loss compared to dropping Lead Shot for a GCD. Things to consider.

[RiceisNice]

No... The former is statistically sound and the latter is not. There is no inaccuracy to the average. MCH is not underrepresented, there are actually more players playing bard (due to bard being out 4 years ago and machinist 6 months), if anything they over represent MCH since I'm sure there are more than 10 times the amount of players playing the older classes individually than the newer classes individually.

It's inaccurate to use as a comparison to something that has a much larger data sample, versus using it as an average for individual performance. And the fact that it's a "new job" isn't a good excuse for something to have a relatively smaller data to compare, looking at DRK:PLD numbers.

Managing CDs at that time becomes a little annoying. Instead of popping wildfire at the beginning of each leg you may have to wait until after adds if you want your wildfire to do much of anything. Takes some adjustment if you're not used to it. But it does for any job.

Wildfire is probably the only big difference between a BRDand MCH. It's both frustrating and satisfying to use, the very nature of it makes it very inflexible to when it can be done; burst damage on adds or trash is out of the question if they die too fast, and wildfire by itself is very ineffective, especially if you can't dedicate the full 15 seconds. It's different, and messing up wildfire (which in itself is less veristile and flexible in it's use) is more detrimental to a BRD missing an extra GCD or two during their cooldowns; you have that feeling of dying inside when you goofed up wildfire, but oyu'd have to actually try (or mess up cooldown timing big time) to goof up something like barrage empyreal.

BRDs in A1S should pull ahead of equally skilled/geared MCH with the same comp if they are keeping both Oppressor's dotted at all times due to BRD dot potency alone. If they're not doing this, then yea, it's not difficult for a MCH to pull equal or slightly better numbers. One 30s dot is easier to manage than two 18s dots. The dot upkeep on BRD, especially while handling adds, requires more thought to GCD management. And if you drop your dots on BRD 2 GCDs are required to correct the error. Much greater potency loss compared to dropping Lead Shot for a GCD. Things to consider.

As mentioned earlier, the percentiles are averages that are missing some context if you just look at it for face value. If you look at the maximum parsed performance, there's a whooping 100 dps difference between the best recorded BRD and MCH.

[Judge_Xero]

Wildfire is probably the only big difference between a BRDand MCH. It's both frustrating and satisfying to use, the very nature of it makes it very inflexible to when it can be done; burst damage on adds or trash is out of the question if they die too fast, and wildfire by itself is very ineffective, especially if you can't dedicate the full 15 seconds. It's different, and messing up wildfire (which in itself is less veristile and flexible in it's use) is more detrimental to a BRD missing an extra GCD or two during their cooldowns; you have that feeling of dying inside when you goofed up wildfire, but oyu'd have to actually try (or mess up cooldown timing big time) to goof up something like barrage empyreal.

These are the main reasons why I enjoy BRD over MCH. I enjoy how flexible MCH is with their ammo system/movement and mixing their CD's in different situations for optimal performance, but Wildfire just kills me. (that and if you pre-load ammo before a pull is annoying to maintain)

Like you say, you can't really mess up Barrage + EA, and it is un-affected by things you are concerned about for WF, other than possibly the boss going Invuln as you fire.

I don't think the WF design is a good trade off for MCH for how easy the class is over BRD.

I feel that a 10s Duration with 35% damage would synergize a bit more with the class and fight mechanics. So I think I'll stick with BRD for now especially for how interesting/dynamic BRD is with gear scaling.