MCH, still as bad?

[UBERHAXED]

It's hard to take the values for face value in favor of MCH because MCH does not have a very large sample size (which means an inaccurate average) compared to BRD (who has a more accurate average, but that also gets affected by their min-recorded dps) when you're looking at percentile averages. If anything, it's just as about as credible as taking the maximum BRD DPS and objectively saying that BRD is more DPS than MCH.

No... The former is statistically sound and the latter is not. There is no inaccuracy to the average. MCH is not underrepresented, there are actually more players playing bard (due to bard being out 4 years ago and machinist 6 months), if anything they over represent MCH since I'm sure there are more than 10 times the amount of players playing the older classes individually than the newer classes individually.

[RinchanNau]

Considering MCH is generally seen as more difficult to play, that’s actually a bit surprising to me. I by no means claim to have all the answers, or be the ultimate analyzer of the data. I am just pointing out that with all the “Bards do higher dps” sentiment out there, the data is not necessarily clearly pointing that out to be the case.

But is it more difficult to play? I think some people just want to make their job sound like a great challenge compared to the alternatives. You can take this with a grain of salt considering I've really only been putting effort into MCH for maybe 1 1/2 months. But I seem to pull respectable numbers from what I can tell. I find MCH, for the most part, a little easier than BRD. I explained some of the reasons earlier in the this thread. And when I say that I don't mean to say that BRD is so much more complicated and challenging. Not at all. They're overall probably similar in difficulty. Each jobs with its own ups and downs.

The main challenge I find with MCH at my current skill level is identifying procs with no ammo. I admittedly miss a few here and there. And I've had my turret cleaved more than a few times in A3S. I've gotten better about replacing my turret asap in those scenarios, but it helps to have communication from other raid members in case I miss it. The other thing is if you're pushing legs much faster than progression pace in A4S. Managing CDs at that time becomes a little annoying. Instead of popping wildfire at the beginning of each leg you may have to wait until after adds if you want your wildfire to do much of anything. Takes some adjustment if you're not used to it. But it does for any job.

eg A1 75th percentile: MCH 1,168 BRD 1,150
50th percentile: MCH: 1,066 BRD: 1,025

BRDs in A1S should pull ahead of equally skilled/geared MCH with the same comp if they are keeping both Oppressors dotted at all times due to BRD dot potency alone. If they're not doing this, then yea, it's not difficult for a MCH to pull equal or slightly better numbers. One 30s dot is easier to manage than two 18s dots. The dot upkeep on BRD, especially while handling adds, requires more thought to GCD management. And if you drop your dots on BRD 2 GCDs are required to correct the error. Or 4 if you drop dots on both Oppressors. Much greater potency loss compared to dropping Lead Shot for a GCD. Things to consider.

[RiceisNice]

No... The former is statistically sound and the latter is not. There is no inaccuracy to the average. MCH is not underrepresented, there are actually more players playing bard (due to bard being out 4 years ago and machinist 6 months), if anything they over represent MCH since I'm sure there are more than 10 times the amount of players playing the older classes individually than the newer classes individually.

It's inaccurate to use as a comparison to something that has a much larger data sample, versus using it as an average for individual performance. And the fact that it's a "new job" isn't a good excuse for something to have a relatively smaller data to compare, looking at DRK:PLD numbers.

Managing CDs at that time becomes a little annoying. Instead of popping wildfire at the beginning of each leg you may have to wait until after adds if you want your wildfire to do much of anything. Takes some adjustment if you're not used to it. But it does for any job.

Wildfire is probably the only big difference between a BRDand MCH. It's both frustrating and satisfying to use, the very nature of it makes it very inflexible to when it can be done; burst damage on adds or trash is out of the question if they die too fast, and wildfire by itself is very ineffective, especially if you can't dedicate the full 15 seconds. It's different, and messing up wildfire (which in itself is less veristile and flexible in it's use) is more detrimental to a BRD missing an extra GCD or two during their cooldowns; you have that feeling of dying inside when you goofed up wildfire, but oyu'd have to actually try (or mess up cooldown timing big time) to goof up something like barrage empyreal.

BRDs in A1S should pull ahead of equally skilled/geared MCH with the same comp if they are keeping both Oppressor's dotted at all times due to BRD dot potency alone. If they're not doing this, then yea, it's not difficult for a MCH to pull equal or slightly better numbers. One 30s dot is easier to manage than two 18s dots. The dot upkeep on BRD, especially while handling adds, requires more thought to GCD management. And if you drop your dots on BRD 2 GCDs are required to correct the error. Much greater potency loss compared to dropping Lead Shot for a GCD. Things to consider.

As mentioned earlier, the percentiles are averages that are missing some context if you just look at it for face value. If you look at the maximum parsed performance, there's a whooping 100 dps difference between the best recorded BRD and MCH.

[Judge_Xero]

Wildfire is probably the only big difference between a BRDand MCH. It's both frustrating and satisfying to use, the very nature of it makes it very inflexible to when it can be done; burst damage on adds or trash is out of the question if they die too fast, and wildfire by itself is very ineffective, especially if you can't dedicate the full 15 seconds. It's different, and messing up wildfire (which in itself is less veristile and flexible in it's use) is more detrimental to a BRD missing an extra GCD or two during their cooldowns; you have that feeling of dying inside when you goofed up wildfire, but oyu'd have to actually try (or mess up cooldown timing big time) to goof up something like barrage empyreal.

These are the main reasons why I enjoy BRD over MCH. I enjoy how flexible MCH is with their ammo system/movement and mixing their CD's in different situations for optimal performance, but Wildfire just kills me. (that and if you pre-load ammo before a pull is annoying to maintain)

Like you say, you can't really mess up Barrage + EA, and it is un-affected by things you are concerned about for WF, other than possibly the boss going Invuln as you fire.

I don't think the WF design is a good trade off for MCH for how easy the class is over BRD.

I feel that a 10s Duration with 35% damage would synergize a bit more with the class and fight mechanics. So I think I'll stick with BRD for now especially for how interesting/dynamic BRD is with gear scaling.

[RiceisNice]

...

On my end, I'm playing MCH because I need to have a feel of difference from how I was playing 2.0. In BRD's case, I just feel like it's regressed more than anything because of WM working against river of blood and the inherent nature of BRD. On MCH's end, it largely feels the same as 2.0 BRD because of the instant casts and oGCD usage, with the difference being wildfire (which is also a slap/kiss relationship with me).

Gear scaling is also another thing, BRD is going to benefit and scale a lot more from crit more than MCH can ever hope to do because of RoB and BRD's overall potency being from themselves rather than part of it being from a secondary source (the turret), and I feel like that's where the difference is going to grow as the Ilvl increases. That's not even getting into how BRD j has far better tools for progression (with DPS checks being the primary bottleneck anyway) because of rain of death and foe requiem for overall dps.

[UBERHAXED]

It's inaccurate to use as a comparison to something that has a much larger data sample, versus using it as an average for individual performance. And the fact that it's a "new job" isn't a good excuse for something to have a relatively smaller data to compare, looking at DRK:PLD numbers.

Technically off topic, but I think you have some obvious observation bias here. If you look at any census data (i.e. the ones they officially release: http://www.finalfantasyxiv.com/Eorze...N_Census_L.PNG) it will be obvious that there are far more players playing older classes (i.e. pld) than newer classes (i.e. drk). The fact that DRK is over represented in the percentile should tell you that making an argument based on sample size is unsound.

[RiceisNice]

Technically off topic, but I think you have some obvious observation bias here. If you look at any census data (i.e. the ones they officially release: http://www.finalfantasyxiv.com/Eorze...N_Census_L.PNG) it will be obvious that there are far more players playing older classes (i.e. pld) than newer classes (i.e. drk). The fact that DRK is over represented in the percentile should tell you that making an argument based on sample size is unsound.

That census is dated a while back though, and I don't recall the critera on whether it was level 50, 60, or mained (the last being next to impossible to determined). Though stepping away from the numbers, I went back to see what the poster is conveying. It's a different context within the relevant discussion (single target dps vs effective raid dps).

This apparently isn't common knowledge, but Mch does higher dps than bard almost across the board. It requires more skill almost exclusively because it does higher damage.

It's not common knowledge because MCH isn't doing more than BRD across the board. Most of the encounters allow for double DoTing which favors BRD's passive and dynamics, and some of the fights work against MCH's tool kit (such as invulnerability phases for delaying wildfire bursts, or adds diluting ricochet)

[Mimilu]

I'm currently leveling my MCH and it's only at 45 but I don't feel like it's harder then BRD was, I just feel like everything leads to Wildfire and then afterwards, while it is on cooldown, you're just waiting for it to come back, where as a BRD, you kind of just unloaded everything when it popped up.

One thing I wish for is that Foot Graze and Suppressive Fire did damage. They both kind of just sit on my hotbar, unused, and I would love to have another attack to weave in-between my weaponskills when Reload isn't up.

[Osmond]

Well yeah bard is better due to it's abilities, cross class, GCD, etc. It's much easier to pull off, much easier to push the DPS to that scale. While MCH it requires players to think on when to use it at the right moment despite losing a bit of DPS, yet at the same time it can stay on top when played well. After playing both classes, yes BRD is better on the DPS output in like 5-8min of the fight, but in a long term fight I see MCH pulling off much better w/ their tools that they have.