MCH, still as bad?

[Ephier]

The DPS of bard improving does not affect the DPS of MCH whatsoever, there is no "disadvantage". That like saying "Bard is at a HUGE!1!! disadvantage when there is a summoner in the party in A2S!!!!", which is clearly false... Then you ask, "how is bard related to summoner?". And I rebuttal with "How is MCH related to BRD?". Of course you'll reply "They are both ranged". And then upon realizing that SMN is ranged, you'll see that it doesn't matter. You don't see BLMs complain about SMN in similar situations because it's a non-issue. It's kind of hard to make all class the same dps, when all of them (barring all 3 melee classes) have RNG elements. Because of this simple impossibility there will be a natural ordering of the classes, where in certain situations, one class will be better than another class. And even then, some classes in very out of the norm situations can get unnaturally high dps just by favor of RNG (which was likely the case when you see bard at the top of the distribution, but not in general). I also could make the case that monk is at a disadvantage to bard when in a multi-target scenario, but no one would care, similar to you're argument with MCH.

I see you like arguing just for the sake of arguing. MCH and BRD are categorized together because they both perform the same function. Restoration of resources. Any progression group will only have one or the other so they are compared to one another. The problem here is not that BRDs perform better in certain fights, its they perform better in every fight. In a normal progression scenario BRD will do more personal DPS and has foes to boost casters further solidifying their status at the top. While MCH may have hyper charge, it really does not keep up with BV foes which can be used 3 times in A3S and A4S.

And again I will say, do not put words in my mouth.

[RiceisNice]

When we're arguing about semantics, there's nothing else left for discussion.

[UBERHAXED]

I see you like arguing just for the sake of arguing. MCH and BRD are categorized together because they both perform the same function. Restoration of resources. Any progression group will only have one or the other so they are compared to one another. The problem here is not that BRDs perform better in certain fights, its they perform better in every fight. In a normal progression scenario BRD will do more personal DPS and has foes to boost casters further solidifying their status at the top. While MCH may have hyper charge, it really does not keep up with BV foes which can be used 3 times in A3S and A4S.

And again I will say, do not put words in my mouth.

Yeah except that's wrong (you were even given proof for the opposite, where MCH performs better in every tier) and you dismiss it as "skewed data" with still nothing to support your own PoV. Maybe if you stop being bad you will become a statistic and be better than the bard.

[Ephier]

Yeah except that's wrong (you were even given proof for the opposite, where MCH performs better in every tier) and you dismiss it as "skewed data" with still nothing to support your own PoV. Maybe if you stop being bad you will become a statistic and be better than the bard.

I have been shown absolutely nothing. I have checked FFlogs my self and MCH is lower than BRD on EVERY savage fight by 100+ DPS. You claim I dismiss this data that I wasn't presented as skewed but the data I am looking at confirms my point. I assume you are smart enough character to proceed to FFlogs and check these numbers I am claiming. All one must do is navigate through the tabs at the top. Yet again I will tell you, stop putting words in my mouth.

[RiceisNice]

Yeah except that's wrong (you were even given proof for the opposite, where MCH performs better in every tier) and you dismiss it as "skewed data" with still nothing to support your own PoV. Maybe if you stop being bad you will become a statistic and be better than the bard.

BRD is performing better in every encounter. Even if you go back to Sidra's links, the max output of a BRD (and this is only going by the last 2 weeks) is still higher than what MCH has done.

[Osmond]

Well yeah bard is better due to it's abilities, cross class, GCD, etc. It's much easier to pull off, much easier to push the DPS to that scale. While MCH it requires players to think on when to use it at the right moment despite losing a bit of DPS, yet at the same time it can stay on top when played well. After playing both classes, yes BRD is better on the DPS output in like 5-8min of the fight, but in a long term fight I see MCH pulling off much better w/ their tools that they have.

[Ephier]

Well yeah bard is better due to it's abilities, cross class, GCD, etc. It's much easier to pull off, much easier to push the DPS to that scale. While MCH it requires players to think on when to use it at the right moment despite losing a bit of DPS, yet at the same time it can stay on top when played well. After playing both classes, yes BRD is better on the DPS output in like 5-8min of the fight, but in a long term fight I see MCH pulling off much better w/ their tools that they have.

100~200 DPS is not a little bit. And there is not a single fight where when played optimally MCH wins. MCH loses overall in personal AND raid DPS. It does not matter how well you play the class, it is a design issue, not a player issue.

[Nirurin]

SO....is the result of this thread that noone wants a MCH in a party, cos they can't do anything better than a bard?

[RiceisNice]

SO....is the result of this thread that noone wants a MCH in a party, cos they can't do anything better than a bard?

No. That's not the point of the thread. MCH isn't bad to the point that it has no place in a raid, but it's not wrong to say to say that MCH isn't as good as a BRD in most circumstances, or that it's less preferable for cutting edge progression.

It goes back to release when both BRD and MCH were signifcantly behind other dps because WM/GB hardly boosted their dps (if not straight up lower it in some circumstances), and they lagged behind other jobs (whom had tools that increased their dps). Top that off with the encounters not not taxing mp/tp usage enough to ever require a regen, it was bad enough in some cases that BRD/MCH was a liability to get clears in (esp when Bismarck on release was a bit heavy on dps checks). It's not the case now, but there are some distinct advantages excllusive to BRD that MCH doesn't have, which gives them an edge in progression (not to mention that they scale better from stats than MCH too, esp crit)

[Nirurin]

It's not the case now, but there are some distinct advantages excllusive to BRD that MCH doesn't have, which gives them an edge in progression (not to mention that they scale better from stats than MCH too, esp crit)

Hmm, that doesn't sound good. Is MCH at least a fun class to play as? It must have some reason to play it haha