DRK vs WAR Self-Healing

[Launched]

While warriors are capable of the better heals, I'd like to point out that DRKs have more consistent healing, and do not have to go through the pains of making a decision.

If a warrior wants to self-heal, they have to make the decision of getting into defiance and staying there for a good 10 seconds, use their 5 stacks, miss out on what could have been extra TP, and precious dps due to no deliverance and a missed eye/block combo. DRK doesn't have to make that much of a decision, instead it does what it usually does because self-healing is included in the package, be it from DA SE in their rotation or DA abysmal drain spam in AoE situations.

DRK needs to be in Grit to get their self healing too, and they can't just swap before Soul Eater because Grit is on GCD. DRK also has to commit to its tanking stance, has less healing from Bloodbath (both from less burst and a shorter duration) and no big burst heal like Equilibrium.

[Izsha]

While warriors are capable of the better heals, I'd like to point out that DRKs have more consistent healing, and do not have to go through the pains of making a decision.

Drk outside of grit has DA aoe heal for half their mp pool and can only maintain it when mp per hit buff is up. Their aoe burst heal is very good, but that's only for a very short time before mp runs out and only in aoes (which zerk maim bloodbath war has a similar equivalence for burst, resource intense aoe damage and heal anyway).

If a warrior wants to self-heal, they have to make the decision of getting into defiance and staying there for a good 10 seconds, use their 5 stacks, miss out on what could have been extra TP, and precious dps due to no deliverance and a missed eye/block combo. DRK doesn't have to make that much of a decision, instead it does what it usually does because self-healing is included in the package, be it from DA SE in their rotation or DA abysmal drain spam in AoE situations.

Sorry, some of that is just incorrect.
You don't get the SE heal (DA or not) unless grit is on. Similar trade off as war.

Missing out on tp is irrelivant on war. They have functionally infinite tp in single target encounters with infuriate moves costing none, and zerk downtime. Aoe is a different issue, but no job can aoe forever sans blm.

[Hierro]

Sorry, some of that is just incorrect.
You don't get the SE heal (DA or not) unless grit is on. Similar trade off as war.

Missing out on tp is irrelivant on war. They have functionally infinite tp in single target encounters with infuriate moves costing none, and zerk downtime. Aoe is a different issue, but no job can aoe forever sans blm.

How am I incorrect? Yes, grit is necessary for the heal, but I never said it could be done outside of grit either. What I'm referring to is that DRK's trade off doesn't get in the way of function, while for warrior it changes things by a lot.

[Iagainsti]

While warriors are capable of the better heals, I'd like to point out that DRKs have more consistent healing, and do not have to go through the pains of making a decision.

If a warrior wants to self-heal, they have to make the decision of getting into defiance and staying there for a good 10 seconds, use their 5 stacks, miss out on what could have been extra TP, and precious dps due to no deliverance and a missed eye/block combo. DRK doesn't have to make that much of a decision, instead it does what it usually does because self-healing is included in the package, be it from DA SE in their rotation or DA abysmal drain spam in AoE situations.

There's a lot wrong with this statement.

At lvl 60, a good Warrior does not run out of TP(with the exception of SA2, and even then you're using Overpower wrong), a good Warrior also knows the timing of the tank buster, so you've popped Defiance early(myself usually after my 3rd stack, bust IB for the buster pre cast, top off with Equilibrium after Buster+AA, and return to Deliverance quickly, missing 5% increased damage on 3 abilities(Maim/Sunder>SE/SP/BB>HS-not a huge dps loss whatsoever) Also, SE/SP have 20 secs before they fall off; I have never missed a full SE/SP/BB combo under Deliverance due to stance dancing.

The two tanks just have different playstyles; What you consider consistent healing without changing your rotation pales in comparison to the burst healing capable of a warrior, both OGCD and within their rotation, and those tools are not a hard decision for a good Warrior nor are they inconsistent at 60 sec, 120 sec, 90 secs cool downs and the maximum 16.5 secs it takes to build 5 stacks( maximum because 3 OGCD abilities create stacks, dropping that time every 120sec to 7.5 secs, and the instant cast of Infuriate) No where in the scheme of things does stance dancing get into the way of function, nor do they take the huge damage loss you make it sound to be.

My tank partner for end content is a DRK , and they do make amazing tanks, but in the debate as to whether their self heals are more efficient and consistent than a Warriors, the DRK is outclassed. I do hope that in future expansions that the DRK(and the PLD) tool kits are enhanced by new abilities as the Warrior was in 3.0 to increase their potential relatively.

[Izsha]

How am I incorrect? Yes, grit is necessary for the heal, but I never said it could be done outside of grit either. What I'm referring to is that DRK's trade off doesn't get in the way of function, while for warrior it changes things by a lot.

I'm not sure why you think flipping defiance/deliverance is some type of horrible hoop to jump through, but toggling grit isnt.

War can at any given second, as a reaction hit defiance and equalibrium. Or at any point with 5 stacks do the same for IB and continue their rotation. Neither equal, defiance, nor IB will interrupt your rotation as they dont require combos and dont interrupt combos, and cost no real resources. Drk will interrupt combos and cost a reasonable chunk of valuable mp to do the same. If you want a SE heal, you have do Rev up 3 gcds early because your combo is broken and have enough mp to grit+DA.

This is the 1st time in the history of the "war OP" Era of 3.x I have ever seen anyone describe stance dance on war as some type of hinderance compared to drk or pld. The 10 second lockout may be a problem for a brand newbie war, but is a brand new tank really pushing the bounds of stance dance? but for anyone that is competent (those that are trying special solo trials and stuff like OP is implying) War is generally agreed to have the smoothest stance dance capability of all tanks. (Up for debate, but the fact that it's instant, resourceless, and not combo breaking are very strong arguments to overcome vs the only advantage of drk being able to turn it off in under 10 sec).

[Februs]

How does PLD compare then, with clemency on pure STR accessories?

Pld self-healing is not really comparable to Drk or War self-healing, because the nature of the healing they provide is fundamentally different.

Clemency is a strong single burst heal which averages roughly between 4-8k worth of healing. It can crit (I've personally seen a crit for over 9k), but Pld's do not cross class Internal Release, so they have no way of actively increasing the odds of a Crit heal. It can only be cast 3 consecutive times, 4 with stretch mp provided by Riot Blade and Shelltron, but the cast is 3 seconds long and can be interrupted. This means that Clemency must be timed according to the opponent's rotation, rather than the Pld's. Timing must be precise.

Further, during the cast the Pld can not attack or block. This means that it can never be stacked with Fight or Flight + Bloodbath or Shelltron / Bullwark without wasting Dps or mitigation. It is also not a sustained heal. Unlike Bloodbath combinations (which run for 15-30 seconds and scale with attack potency and the number of targets hit) or Abyssal Drain (which which is also a burst heal but scales with potency and the number of targets hit), Clemency is a single burst with a fairly consistent effect. Given that you cannot block during the cast, passive mitigation is reduced; so, Pld's see diminishing returns on Clemency in mob tanking environments. It excels in one thing and one thing only: Scripted fights.

Most Trials have planned and timed Tank Busters or Party-Wide AoE's. Clemency can be efficiently timed to go off immediately afterwards if you know precisely when these attacks happen. Given that Clemency can exceed a healer's potency (Clemency has one of the strongest heal potency's in the game) it is extremely beneficial if it is timed correctly (either on themselves or on another party member) and free up the healer to put their attention elsewhere. However, if the timing is off then the Pld wasted 3 seconds of Dps (possibly more, if they were mid combo). In that regard, they have to be much more careful of when they use their healing ability.

It just doesn't have the same usage as Drk and War healing abilities, so they can't really be compared directly.

[SpookyGhost]

WAR > DRK in terms of self healing. If all you're after in a tank is self healing and being able to solo, then WAR is an easy choice, however there's more to consider if you want to be more than just a solo machine. That said, both are fantastic tanks, so if you like lots of self healing and being able to solo stuff most other classes can't, then I'd recommend WAR. If you don't care either way, try both, see what you think yourself.

[Syzygian]

How am I incorrect? Yes, grit is necessary for the heal, but I never said it could be done outside of grit either. What I'm referring to is that DRK's trade off doesn't get in the way of function, while for warrior it changes things by a lot.

In the way of objectivity, I have to say that the others are right. Yes Grit SE healing is frequent and welcomed but DRK's want to stay in Grit like they want a hole in the head. WAR can jump into Defiance at almost no DPS cost for 20s every 120 (Unchained) and get off most of the healing through SW and EQ that DRK got off in that entire 120s of being in Grit, and WAR only had to be in Defiance for a fraction of that.

In a way, SE's healing component is rarely utilized, as the main mechanical playstyle of DRK has evolved (or devolved, depending on how you see it) from "mana management" to "how can I keep Grit on as little as possible". WAR is similar, but because their healing is burst, they can line it up for when they want/need to use Defiance, whereas a DRK doesn't want to (and shouldn't) be keeping Grit on long enough to see impressive returns from SE in most encounters. If raids in 3.2 are more like Thordan or even harder hitting then SE healing may prove very nice actually but until then its benefits are rarely seen in practice.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Warrior also heals for 20% of his max life every time he switches from Defiance to Deliverance.

[Iagainsti]

Warrior also heals for 20% of his max life every time he switches from Defiance to Deliverance.

No, they do not.