The arrogance of some people

[Kosmos992k]

yeah that's bullshit. you really haven't noticed they lie to make bad players feel less bad?

Well, my bullshit detector just did a full scale deflection before melting, but only after I read the above sentence.

You need to back up any accusation of lying you throw against the developers and/or producer, otherwise you're shoveling steaming piles of bullshit yourself.

The fact is that the developers have explicitly stated how they balanced the content and it didn't include healer DPS. Sure, they assumed damn near perfect execution by the DPS and Tank, along with a very high gear level. So, if your group isn't geared and skilled as they assumed in their balancing of the content, you need healer DPS to make up the difference. That practical reality for under-geared and less than perfectly skilled groups, does not alter the way in which the content was actually balanced.

Finally found the quote I was looking for in which Yoshi explicitly states how they calculate raid damage and addresses the inclusion of healer DPS by world first groups and the like. Here it is;

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...ia-Event-5-19) Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set. Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible. While we could take this into account, and assume a different item level in the next update which would then make it impossible to clear even with the healer DPS, we'd eliminate this type of play for highly skilled players who use communication, items, and a high level of understanding to come up with those last second clears. That would be a tough decision to make, so I still think it should be up to each party's own plans. This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.

[Eothas]

What some players don't realize (or try to overlook), is that if a run is taking 16~20 minutes without healers damage, it is because your DPS and maybe Tank are doing a great job, probably doing more than 75% of their potential. Meanwhile a "pure healer" is doing 40~50% of their potential in most situations, probably less.

Can you imagine if all DPS players suddenly adopt this "I'll do the bare minimum" mentality? How much time would take to complete a dungeon? Yes, thats the infamous 45 minutes run.

Then I'd pop on my SMN and enjoy a 14 minute run.
.

14 minutes run independently of your party members? Probably can be done, but I think this only applies to SMN. (and the tank needs to do big pulls).

Nearly every run of my SCH/PLD would take 35-45 minutes (and I'd be DPSing with my SCH :|)..

Different experience here. Most runs take around 20 minutes max (DPSing with my WHM) I never had a 45 minutes run with my healer in EX roulette. It's always around 30 minutes max if both DPS are bad. But without a doubt would take 45 min without my DPS.

In the rare occasions where both DPS are good, takes around 10~13 minutes.

[Kaurie]

What some players don't realize (or try to overlook), is that if a run is taking 16~20 minutes without healers damage, it is because your DPS and maybe Tank are doing a great job, probably doing more than 75% of their potential. Meanwhile a "pure healer" is doing 40~50% of their potential in most situations, probably less.

Can you imagine if all DPS players suddenly adopt this "I'll do the bare minimum" mentality? How much time would take to complete a dungeon? Yes, thats the infamous 45 minutes run.



14 minutes run independently of your party members? Probably can be done, but I think this only applies to SMN. (and the tank needs to do big pulls).




Different experience here. Most runs take around 20 minutes max (DPSing with my WHM) I never had a 45 minutes run with my healer in EX roulette. It's always around 30 minutes max if both DPS are bad. But without a doubt would take 45 min without my DPS.

In the rare occasions where both DPS are good, takes around 10~13 minutes.

I may have the date range wrong, this may have been in July? It's when most people had like 170-180 ilvl. 45 minutes was definitely the longest and 14 the shortest.

Back then:
I'd say average run on SMN = 16 or 17 minutes
I'd say average run with my SCH = 30-35 minutes
I'd say average run with my PLD = 35-40 minutes

It was really quite ridiculous.

[Whiteroom]

Well, that can be taken in a few ways.
1. Healer dps is freebie dps.
2. Healers are part of the team and should help dps to overcome hurdles.
3. Healer dps is not included in dps check calculation, as they may be doing something else at this time. ie. Recovering MP, topping up and shielding team etc.

In the iend as I have said, the point is really moot as we don't know so many of the variables. Also this was in regards to how they tune dps checks in raids, not how classes, or instances are supposed to be played.

Nowhere does it really hint how they want roles played.

If one thought about it, you can tell dungeons are tuned much lower, so there is signifigantly more oppertunity for the healer to be contributing to dps. And that is what is being discussed.

[Alahra]

Finally found the quote I was looking for in which Yoshi explicitly states how they calculate raid damage and addresses the inclusion of healer DPS by world first groups and the like. Here it is;

As has been noted in previous posts (which also reference the quote you found, in full), while Yoshi did in fact state this, he also admitted that the DPS checks in Savage were tuned too highly, such that it's not simply a matter of item levels not being high enough for a wider majority of groups than the top echelon of raiders. That is, Yoshi admits the DPS requirements in Savage are currently overtuned such that groups are needing more than just better gear to clear the fights: they're needing additional DPS (one source of which is that "last resort" healer DPS he mentioned in your quote).

[Eothas]

I may have the date range wrong, this may have been in July? It's when most people had like 170-180 ilvl. 45 minutes was definitely the longest and 14 the shortest.

Oh my fault, I did not read the part of your post specifying date, it makes more sense now.

[Purrfectstorm]

This is all that needs to be said about healer dps:

1) You can't objectively call healers bad for not dpsing because there are times where it might be okay for a healer to not dps.

a) For example, if their dps is not needed to clear the content.
b) And nobody cares that they aren't dpsing.
c) And they don't care to push their job to the limits of what it can do.

2) However, it is not likely that those situations arise. Generally people:

a) Want to clear the content, not bash their heads against it because the healer won't dps.
b) Want to clear content more quickly and won't be happy with a healer that makes things take longer.
c) Want to do their best and/or play with others who also want to do their best.

3) Furthermore, even if the dps were 90% (let's say) responsible for the speed of the run, it doesn't mean that the other 10% is irrelevant. It's a terrible outlook to say "because so-and-so is mediocre, I'm going to be mediocre too." Personal accountability means asking "what can I do right now to make this situation better?" Making a situation better, even by 10%, is not nothing.

4) It is selfish to neglect the rest of your team. Yes, you might be able to get away with watching Netflix while your faerie heals the whole dungeon. However, we are playing a team game and your team likely expects more from you.

5) The best players set the standard for everyone else. If a healer can heal and dps for Alexander Savage, you can heal and dps for Sastasha normal. You have a choice whether or not you want to try to emulate great play, but most groups will not thank you for emulating mediocre play.

In conclusion, I can think of no reason to support the decision to not dps as a healer (assuming it is safe to do so). Most groups will want or expect you to. It will make unbeatable content beatable and beatable content faster. The decision to not dps as a healer doesn't make you a bad player, but not caring about the rest of your team does.

[Kaurie]

This is all that needs to be said about healer dps:

1) You can't objectively call healers bad for not dpsing because there are times where it might be okay for a healer to not dps.

a) For example, if their dps is not needed to clear the content.
b) And nobody cares that they aren't dpsing.
c) And they don't care to push their job to the limits of what it can do.

Your premise was OK, but your reasoning seems flawed. If you are stating that all 3 must be met, then if someone is saying that player is bad then B) automatically is not met. If you're saying that any of the 3 options need to be met then for part a&c), if I don't care to push my SMN DPS limits and put out a solid 200 DPS and we take 80 minutes to run a dungeon. Would you say I am bad? I think most people would.

Further, down below you mention that the "best player" will DPS for Savage and that DPSing in Sastasha emulates "great play". This further supports the idea that DPSing as a Healer is something a good player does.

3) Furthermore, even if the dps were 90% (let's say) responsible for the speed of the run, it doesn't mean that the other 10% is irrelevant. It's a terrible outlook to say "because so-and-so is mediocre, I'm going to be mediocre too." Personal accountability means asking "what can I do right now to make this situation better?" Making a situation better, even by 10%, is not nothing.

4) It is selfish to neglect the rest of your team. Yes, you might be able to get away with watching Netflix while your faerie heals the whole dungeon. However, we are playing a team game and your team likely expects more from you.

5) The best players set the standard for everyone else. If a healer can heal and dps for Alexander Savage, you can heal and dps for Sastasha normal. You have a choice whether or not you want to try to emulate great play, but most groups will not thank you for emulating mediocre play.

In conclusion, I can think of no reason to support the decision to not dps as a healer (assuming it is safe to do so). Most groups will want or expect you to. It will make unbeatable content beatable and beatable content faster. The decision to not dps as a healer doesn't make you a bad player, but not caring about the rest of your team does.

Agreed!

[Kosmos992k]

As has been noted in previous posts (which also reference the quote you found, in full), while Yoshi did in fact state this, he also admitted that the DPS checks in Savage were tuned too highly, such that it's not simply a matter of item levels not being high enough for a wider majority of groups than the top echelon of raiders. That is, Yoshi admits the DPS requirements in Savage are currently overtuned such that groups are needing more than just better gear to clear the fights: they're needing additional DPS (one source of which is that "last resort" healer DPS he mentioned in your quote).

I never said otherwise, and in fact he implies exactly that in the quote I had in my post - which you correctly referenced. The fact that they overtuned the raid this time doesn't say a single thing about healer DPS being included in their balance or not. It says that the 10-15% margin that they used in their planning was insufficient in reality because execution, gear and mechanical issues are more significant factors than the 10-15% margin of optimal tank & damage dealer total DPS - hence as he said, world first groups and others looking to down the content as quickly as possible supplement the party DPS with healer DPS.

However the poster I was responding to directly charged the developers with lying to the player base. Given the evidence to the contrary, and the baseless nature of the accusation, it seemed appropriate to call the player on it, and put up the relevant quote.

I'm not arguing that Healer DPS was not needed to clear Alex Savage as it was implemented, it's clear that although the design didn't include it, the actual reality of the content made it necessary. Yoshi's recognition of this reality speaks to the truth of his original statement and the flexibility he is actually showing by recognizing the gap between reality and the original design.

What some players don't realize (or try to overlook), is that if a run is taking 16~20 minutes without healers damage, it is because your DPS and maybe Tank are doing a great job, probably doing more than 75% of their potential. Meanwhile a "pure healer" is doing 40~50% of their potential in most situations, probably less.

I'd say that in practice that depends on whether or not the tank is being really aggressive, tanking in DPS stance, using a full STR build and paying more attention to optimizing their DPS than they are to using their cool-downs or dodging the avoidable damage. If they are overly damage focused, the healer will *need* to spend more time looking after the tank. In which case, unless the tank is a WAR, the question is, would it be better for the tank to go turtle and let the healer do more damage, or does the additional damage output (over and above that which is done anyway to maintain aggro) of the tank outweigh that of the healer? If not then the tank needs to put their numbers and ego aside and let the healer open up their box of tricks.

[Yukiko]

In Final Fantasy Healers are equipped with MND and not MAG...
Try to attack with your staff or use black magic that is based on MAG...
There is one element which is mainly for healer and meant to be a filler - holy - "dia" and such...
Square Enix messed up the whole element wheel and we have now a light DPS who can heal, the combat is designed based on the thinking that your group do not need healing! Healer DPS became the main part and not just a "filler". Needed or not it is a fact and direct result of that strict gamedesign, point!