PLD 4.0

[Reynhart]

The main problem with how parry and block work is that they are independent rolls.

Except they're not. For PLD Parry roll is only triggered by a failed Block roll.
If they really were, you could have a succesful Block and a succesful Parry at the same time, for an additionnal mitigation.

As for RNG mitigation, yes, you're right. That's why I think it could be interesting to make Sheltron a GCD (With a lower MP return, of course). Reliable Block, at the cost of some damage and enmity.

And give back Shield Swipe on GCD, but as a conal AoE.

[Shurrikhan]

Except they're not. For PLD Parry roll is only triggered by a failed Block roll.

I think she meant independent as in exclusive? You can get one, not the other. But neither would one be gated behind the other?

That said, and I'd have to go link-diving to check, but I was pretty sure all mitigation types shared the same table, along with crit, which is why removing crit taken chance rescaled not only hit chance but also block, dodge, and parry, to enlarged sizes?

With a buckler at the end of ARR in i125 I was getting close to a one-third block chance. My parry chance, however, was barely affected when swapping to a tower shield (several merged dungeons with each set). I don't see how this could be the case if my parries were gated behind block.

I'm still not entirely sure, coding-wise, why an auto-crit prevents auto-parry, though.

[Reynhart]

I don't see how this could be the case if my parries were gated behind block.

There is a sure way to see if parry is really gated behind block.
Test wether or not you can parry with Sheltron up.

We already know that Hit and Crit takes priority, since you can be missed or take a critical hit above Sheltron.

[Shurrikhan]

There is a sure way to see if parry is really gated behind block.
Test whether or not you can parry with Sheltron up.

We already know that Hit and Crit takes priority, since you can be missed or take a critical hit above Sheltron.

Given that it guarantees the block though, I don't see how this would be a fair test. For a parry to occur during a guaranteed block, they couldn't even be of the same table, because the block would subsume all parry chance (along with potentially hit, crit, and dodge); block would have to be gated by parry.

I'd imagine that if there's any sequencing of the defensive CDs, it would basically be to make sure a lesser mitigation tool isn't used over a greater one, right? Wouldn't the assumed order then be dodge > block (assuming kite/tower shield, or buckler after a tier or two, given parry's fixed state) > parry? The test then would be whether you can dodge during Shelltron. I've personally tried to test it, but I can't be sure whether Shelltron was actually yet armed/activated when the dodge occurs with the buff visible.

That said, I've forgotten if miss/dodge chance are one and the same, even with Featherfoot up. Do enemies have a intrinsic miss chance / accuracy rating? Or is all that simply your dodge chance? All I can be sure of is its level dependency.

Edit: to be clear, by the last sentence do you mean that as in atop Shelltron (blocking a crit), or not allowing Shelltron?

[Reynhart]

Given that it guarantees the block though, I don't see how this would be a fair test.

Sheltron doesn't really guarantees a block. It only makes you Block roll 100% succesful.
If a parry roll can go unrestricted by block, it means that, sometimes, you would do a successful parry roll even with Sheltron up.
If you never parry, then the parry roll is restricted by a failed block check, making them dependent...and making your parry rate unaffected by the size of your shield a bit strange.

For my last sentence, it means that a critical hit will bypass Sheltron, not activating it.

As for miss...Actually I don't recall ever seeing an incoming "Miss" instead of a "Dodge", so I'd say that's a single accuracy/evasion check. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Another option would be for RA to simply ignore the dmg penalty of Shield Oath.

Simple, subtle, elegant.
Thumbs up !

[Shurrikhan]

As for miss...Actually I don't recall ever seeing an incoming "Miss" instead of a "Dodge", so I'd say that's a single accuracy/evasion check. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that.
)

There definitely hasn't been a distinction in display since 1.x, where you originally could tell when an enemy dodged vs. you missed, and vice versa, but I haven't been able to find any definitive evidence yet as to whether this was a change to display or coding when everything turned into just "dodge". It certainly favors Haymaker, now, at any rate.

Edit: actually, I think you can Haymaker after "dodging" magic attacks, and since magic does not trigger dodge rolls, as far as I'm aware, then it must be combined with miss chance. Sorry for my memory loss there.

I would imagine then that it goes Crit y/n </> Hit y/n > Block y/n > Parry y/n, if they do use sequentials, given that, as you said. But I could have sworn one of the benefits of bucklers originally was to make critical strikes against you less frequent, because they blocks and crits taken shared a table, like an extended Awareness, back when Twintania crits were killing tanks. I don't see they would choose to make Crits would be exempt from blocks and parries... It works, sure, but just seems a really odd choice not to have that side continue down the remaining checks. Even in this system, taking out crit chance via Awareness would make it less likely (well, impossible) for the incoming attacks to skip your dodges, blocks, and parries, essentially increasing their chance, but it just seems really weird that they'd do that... Oh well, that among many things.

Edit: Should be Hit > Crit > Block > Parry, as Reynhart said.

[Reynhart]

I would imagine then that it goes Crit y/n > Hit y/n > Block y/n > Parry y/n, if they do use sequentials, given that, as you said.

Wouldn't it make sense to check hit before crit ?
Were Ninjas able to take critical hits with Perfect Dodge up before it was changed ?

[Jpec07]

Should be Hit > Crit > Block > Parry, as Reynhart said.

I'm quietly hoping they change it to something like Hit > Crit = Block = Parry. It would cut down on the effective mitigation brought by Awareness from making all physical attacks parryable (instead of just non-Crits), but the skill is extremely powerful on its own without that component (more than most would probably guess - still working on that spreadsheet I kept mentioning).

And I will rebut the comments made on the first page here: RNG is not the problem with parry. Parry's problem, as others have said, is that there simply aren't enough physical attacks being made on tanks for it to make a difference. Bosses in this game have an extremely slow white damage tick; and at least in 3.0, that tick also hits about as hard as a wet noodle. If encounters are designed to trigger at least more frequent physical damage (say 2-3x as many hits in a fight as there are now), Parry would suddenly become more useful again. We'd also need encounters that don't rely on DPS checks so heavily, but that's a different can of worms I'd rather not open.

Saying that it's not useful because it's RNG is inane. It is damage mitigation, plain and simple. Sure, Parry won't save you from a tankbuster, but it will smooth out incoming white damage ticks a little bit, and make it so you can soak more damage and require less healing. And frankly, anything that can be done to make yourself easier to heal, even if only a little, is very worth doing (and no, "killing it faster" doesn't make you easier to heal, it just means the healer will be healing you for a shorter amount of time while cursing you for making their jobs that much harder - especially if you're paired with a low-throughput healer like SCH).