The arrogance of some people

[Lexia]

This whole thread is this


which then turns into this

[Kaurie]

Well, even simple mechanics are more interesting than none. I can't think of a case where being able to skip a mechanic makes the game more fun rather than less. There might be one somewhere, but if so, I'd think it would be unusual rather than the norm. Most of the time, skipping mechanics seems to be about making the game more boring in exchange for getting it over with a little quicker.



If you think it's an argument that should be saved for a debate on some university class on the Philosophy of MMO Dungeon Running, apart from not being in a university, that's pretty much what this whole thread is. We're debating the approach to running dungeons. So I don't see how that makes it out of place.

And I'm a bit confused as to why you referred to it as being a semantics argument. (Though, ironically, now this question itself is going to be semantic, about your use of the word "semantic".) Either that word doesn't mean what you think it means, or else you're reading something into my posts that's not what I wrote, and I'm a bit curious as to which of those is the case. A semantics argument is one that shifts into discussing the meaning of words that are used to describe a situation rather than discussing the situation itself. Occasionally that's a necessary sideline if it seems part of the disagreement comes from different people interpreting words differently. Other times it just distracts from the main point. But up until this paragraph, nothing I've written in this thread was about what different terms mean. Simply taking a series of statements and addressing each one individually, as I did in the post you quoted, doesn't make a discussion of the points being made into a semantics argument.

A debate in a university classroom is for theory and education - this is especially true on the Philosophy aspect of what I mentioned, as opposed to the forums where we are talking about the practicality of it.

If you want to have a chat on the Philosophy of MMO Dungeon running, you could start a thread. I doubt you'd get much response.

I was talking about semantics, because the origin of your posts went back to you arguing over the meaning behind the word objective.


DISCLAIMER: Hit forum post cap, ugh this cap is so dumb, so I am editing this post with my reply. I hope you see it.

You're trying to pick and choose select portions of the conversation, and you're getting what I said out of context in the process.

Healers who refuse to do anything during downtime is one of the topics of this thread. (Actually, it's one I can agree with you on in most cases.) But grading a healer's skill level based on how much DPS they can pump out is also a major part of the discussion. I don't agree with the people who say you're a better healer if you leave everyone skirting the edge of death while you just focus on getting out as much damage as possible. That might make you a better speedrunner, but not a better player.

And I got into this conversation in response to other claims that tried to prove more DPS was clearly superior based on the fact that it can shave some time off the run. That's purely a speedrunning consideration.



You say that as though avoiding the mechanics and just burning the boss down at every opportunity would make it less repetitious. The mechanics may not have as much variety as you might like, but they have more variety than that does.

Making the fight shorter allows less time for error, but since it also makes the fight more hectic (and in the situation I addressed, a lot more precarious), it increases the likelihood of error during that time.

I am now out of Void Ark, so I feel better suited to reply to you. I am using this post, but I am more replying to you in general from your entire stream of posts.

My first post last page to you was in regards to how you tackled someone's argument that stated finishing a run fast is Objectively better. You then argued the semantics behind the term of objective. You focused in on that term more-so than the argument itself. That said, I get what you are saying, in that there are other considerations in a run past finishing quickly. The reason why one can consider it 'objectively' better, is that most of us come from a Capatalist economy. This economy puts the perspective in our heads that increased productivity is inherently better, in the case of a dungeon run, that means getting the most tomes/reward in the least time = increased productivity.

While I can agree that some may want to take longer and enjoy the scenery and explore areas, heck I love exploring stuff, the reality is that isn't the case of the majority. It's also not the case once you've explored the dungeon once.

In terms of your statement above, "I don't agree with the people who say you're a better healer if you leave everyone skirting the edge of death while you just focus on getting out as much damage as possible.", I feel you may be misunderstanding the point of many here. Those, including myself, who advocate letting HP drop to a set level (say 20%), are not suggesting you let them skirt the edge of death. We are saying that you learn your class, so you can tell how far you can let them drop and successfully bring them back up. All healers have a quick instant cast, powerful heal - I use Tetragrammaton on every pull, for example. So, I let the tank drop to 20%, swap out of cleric, regen for the instant GCD, weave in Tetra oGCD and heal if necessary or pop back to Cleric Stance. The essence of our argument is that you learn the healing job, learn mechanics and understand when damage will come in and when you need to heal, rather than over-healing to the point that you are wasting MP and contributing less to the party.

As for your thoughts on mechanics, yes mechanics are what make this game fun. It's what I hated about Guild Wars 2 (there are no mechanics, just dpsdpdpsdpdspdspdspdpsdpsdpdsdpspdsps). That said, skipping phases can be exciting and fun and something to go "Oh wow, we skipped that phase entirely!". It's a great feeling and adds to the fun of the game. In a sense, skipping a phase or mechanic is a mechanic of itself.

You are correct, that a DPSing healer may make things more chaotic. I'd like to circle back to a post I made awhile back.

Ultimately, though, it really just comes down to good and bad players.

Good players do everything available in their toolkit to help their team achieve their goals. Tanks using CDs appropriately, Healers weaving in DPS, DPS weaving in utility.
Bad players do either the bare minimum of their role to clear the content, or attempt to use their entire toolkit with having no idea how to do it.

Personally, I prefer the latter half of the bad players, because at least they are trying to improve themselves.

..

Ok, thanks for the clarification. So it was because you misunderstood what I'd said.

The point was that a previous poster tried proving that more DPS is inherently better based on the fact that it speeds up the run. I pointed out that speeding up the run is only better for those players who want the run to go faster. For anyone else, that effect (that it makes the run go faster) does not lead to the conclusion she reached from it (that it's a more valid playstyle).

I did not misunderstand you. I get your argument, but you zeroed in on the term 'objectively' better to suit your argument, and ignored the actual context or meaning of what she was saying. Speeding up a run is definitely considered better by many, but maybe not all. The same could be said of most things that most people consider better, I'd like to know where we draw the line.

For example, most may consider it better to not purposely cause one bodily harm; however, there are sadists out there who enjoy this. In this case, is it actually objectively better to not cause harm to someone?

PS: I get the hypocrisy that I am now engaged in the semantics argument with you.

[Niwashi]

getting out of the dungeon faster: you're missing the point here. we're not arguing about speedruns. That is not what this thread is about and you have constantly ignored that every time someone refutes you. We're talking about healers who absolutely refuse to do anything during the big amount of healing downtimes that exist in this game, or think that overhealing is a good way to fill that void.

You're trying to pick and choose select portions of the conversation, and you're getting what I said out of context in the process.

Healers who refuse to do anything during downtime is one of the topics of this thread. (Actually, it's one I can agree with you on in most cases.) But grading a healer's skill level based on how much DPS they can pump out is also a major part of the discussion. I don't agree with the people who say you're a better healer if you leave everyone skirting the edge of death while you just focus on getting out as much damage as possible. That might make you a better speedrunner, but not a better player.

And I got into this conversation in response to other claims that tried to prove more DPS was clearly superior based on the fact that it can shave some time off the run. That's purely a speedrunning consideration.

less mechanics to do: mechanics repeat themselves lol

You say that as though avoiding the mechanics and just burning the boss down at every opportunity would make it less repetitious. The mechanics may not have as much variety as you might like, but they have more variety than that does.

less chances to make mistakes: again, you're missing the point. the original poster said this in the context of making the fight shorter. Making the fight shorter allows less room for error.

Making the fight shorter allows less time for error, but since it also makes the fight more hectic (and in the situation I addressed, a lot more precarious), it increases the likelihood of error during that time.

[Niwashi]

I was talking about semantics, because the origin of your posts went back to you arguing over the meaning behind the word objective.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. So it was because you misunderstood what I'd said.

The point was that a previous poster tried proving that more DPS is inherently better based on the fact that it speeds up the run. I pointed out that speeding up the run is only better for those players who want the run to go faster. For anyone else, that effect (that it makes the run go faster) does not lead to the conclusion she reached from it (that it's a more valid playstyle).

The word "objective" did come up quite a bit, as did a few synonyms for it. But I didn't think there was any confusion over what it meant, only over whether it was true.

[Lancelot_Kahn]

A healer that don't cast a few DoTs in normal dungeons = lazy? Seriously? Do you guys even bother to read OP's post? A i210 DPS sucking at putting out DPS whom then blames OP for not helping on DPS...I'm not even a fully equipped i210 DPS, even when I have a 2nd DPS outputting half my damage, my dng runs rarely exceeds the typical 30 minutes....OP's run was at 40 mins.

Again, in this simple case, DPS is the problem! A few DoTs from healer isn't going to reduced a 40 minutes run into 15 mins...be real people! That said, IF all four players are dishing out good DPS, then YES, everyone gets out faster—but those 15 minute runs really don't happen often via Duty Finder.

[Tilgung]

This may surprise you, but over the course of 62 pages, the... conversation... has evolved a great deal.

[UBERHAXED]

Those numbers are inflated. The entire team is working together to increase that one characters DPS numbers to obscene levels in dummy fights. Doing this causes the other members DPS to tank in comparison.

I'm not saying it's fake. I'm saying the team composition is being adjusted for very easy fights to improve a single members DPS for e-peen reasons.

Why are you riding these e-peens so hard that you're going to throw out the fact these same players are putting out sub 1500 DPS in actual challenging fights that can't be done with DPS padding strats in any reliable way?

Here's an idea, how about you look at those characters histories in those fights. That character with the 1800 Oppressor also has attempts against Oppressor as low as 1200. In fact, their most recent kill is 1552

Your dps will depend on the clear time. Comparing to attempts 6 months ago to say that the character has low attempts doesn't really aid your argument since no one was talking about low attempts. DPS lowers in fights where the boss has forced DOWNTIME (you know, when bosses go invincible and you are doing 0 dps for a few seconds). It has nothing to do with "in actually challenging fights". If the party dps was lowered to the degree you were talking about, then the clear times would be higher and the dps would be lowers as result. Do you have problems with team synergy. Should teammates not work together to improve the overall dps? I mean who are you giving the balance card to? The Bard? Are you serious? People are being efficient. Your's trying to imply that unless it's 2 particular fights, then it's a dummy fight and it doesn't count. But if that's true then everyone should be doing dummy dps which still means dps shouldn't be as low as the point you're saying. Also lol at recent clears... how is that even relevant. They could have had a longer fight in the recent clears (because part dps was low) and dps lowered as a result. You also are completely ignoring the point that every party member was at the top of the percentile in that clear:
http://www.fflogs.com/reports/KJkhLf...pe=damage-done

How exactly is raid dps suffering here?

[Tilgung]

And all of those other DPS landed, more or less, in my designated zone. Mind you, the MCH only reached that point with Double DoTing. BRD was double DoTing but fell below that. DRG and NIN edged above with above average critical hit rates. And smart Gierskogul positioning in the DRGs case. BLM was miles ahead, but that's what happens when you're double DoTing and not worrying about mechanics at all with Balance Cards and Battle Voiced Foe's Requiem.

And, again, my numbers were based on a 4 man composition where you don't get numerous buffs stacked and rotated on a single character for damage inflation. Nor does that character usually get to completely ignore mechanics.

Maybe go through those parses properly next time so I don't have to point these things out for you.

EDIT: The DRG would only be about 75 DPS lower than the BLM managed if they got those cards, despite the fact they were on Alarum duty. So, yeah, the Balance cards are a pretty big deal.

[FoxyAreku]

A healer that don't cast a few DoTs in normal dungeons = lazy? Seriously? Do you guys even bother to read OP's post? A i210 DPS sucking at putting out DPS whom then blames OP for not helping on DPS...I'm not even a fully equipped i210 DPS, even when I have a 2nd DPS outputting half my damage, my dng runs rarely exceeds the typical 30 minutes....OP's run was at 40 mins.

Again, in this simple case, DPS is the problem! A few DoTs from healer isn't going to reduced a 40 minutes run into 15 mins...be real people! That said, IF all four players are dishing out good DPS, then YES, everyone gets out faster—but those 15 minute runs really don't happen often via Duty Finder.

Him not dpsing sure didn't help the situation either. ;p

[Eothas]

And why is healer's doing dps such a hot button issue on these forums? Geez, no one says it's needed, just that you're lazy if you stand there doing nothing (which is true, and there shouldn't be any shame to admitting you're lazy about certain things in a video game).

If they admit, the Apocalypse will be unleashed, the angels will descend from the skies to punish them, all pyramids will fall, Yoshida will knock on their doors and tell them to git gud, a meteor storm will happen, and so on... At least is what they think. I'll try it:

My DRK has room for improvement, I think I can do more DPS, I need to practice on how to better use Abyssal Drain, whenever I start a fight with Plunge I often lose a GCD (due to my keybinds), etc... yeah, I can clear all dungeons, but I think I can do better.

Oh my god, I'm not perfect! (!!!!!) oh my god... was so difficult to admit all these things... wait, the apocalypse is not happening yet? Oh... not so hard afterall.