The arrogance of some people

[Niwashi]

getting out of the dungeon faster: you're missing the point here. we're not arguing about speedruns. That is not what this thread is about and you have constantly ignored that every time someone refutes you. We're talking about healers who absolutely refuse to do anything during the big amount of healing downtimes that exist in this game, or think that overhealing is a good way to fill that void.

You're trying to pick and choose select portions of the conversation, and you're getting what I said out of context in the process.

Healers who refuse to do anything during downtime is one of the topics of this thread. (Actually, it's one I can agree with you on in most cases.) But grading a healer's skill level based on how much DPS they can pump out is also a major part of the discussion. I don't agree with the people who say you're a better healer if you leave everyone skirting the edge of death while you just focus on getting out as much damage as possible. That might make you a better speedrunner, but not a better player.

And I got into this conversation in response to other claims that tried to prove more DPS was clearly superior based on the fact that it can shave some time off the run. That's purely a speedrunning consideration.

less mechanics to do: mechanics repeat themselves lol

You say that as though avoiding the mechanics and just burning the boss down at every opportunity would make it less repetitious. The mechanics may not have as much variety as you might like, but they have more variety than that does.

less chances to make mistakes: again, you're missing the point. the original poster said this in the context of making the fight shorter. Making the fight shorter allows less room for error.

Making the fight shorter allows less time for error, but since it also makes the fight more hectic (and in the situation I addressed, a lot more precarious), it increases the likelihood of error during that time.

[Judge_Xero]

But grading a healer's skill level based on how much DPS they can pump out is also a major part of the discussion. I don't agree with the people who say you're a better healer if you leave everyone skirting the edge of death while you just focus on getting out as much damage as possible. That might make you a better speedrunner, but not a better player.

And I got into this conversation in response to other claims that tried to prove more DPS was clearly superior based on the fact that it can shave some time off the run. That's purely a speedrunning consideration.

Making the fight shorter allows less time for error, but since it also makes the fight more hectic (and in the situation I addressed, a lot more precarious), it increases the likelihood of error during that time.

Just wanted to come in and ask that, how does fulfilling your role as a healer by not letting people die while dishing out as much DPS as you can, not make you a better player than someone who just keeps everyone alive? (You are right that it does not make you a better healer though, so that I can agree with)

Then you go to state that it increases the likelihood of error, and yet if that healer continues to perform their required task (keeping everyone alive) plus any additional tasks (DPS) then that would definitely mean they are a better player.

[Odett]

Just wanted to come in and ask that, how does fulfilling your role as a healer by not letting people die while dishing out as much DPS as you can, not make you a better player than someone who just keeps everyone alive? (You are right that it does not make you a better healer though, so that I can agree with)

Then you go to state that it increases the likelihood of error, and yet if that healer continues to perform their required task (keeping everyone alive) plus any additional tasks (DPS) then that would definitely mean they are a better player.

Thank you for saying what I was too tired to say.

[Kallera]

Just wanted to come in and ask that, how does fulfilling your role as a healer by not letting people die while dishing out as much DPS as you can, not make you a better player than someone who just keeps everyone alive?....

Well, while I do not play healer, I do think this has something to do with the trinity. if a dps had the abilities of healing the party, or could tank reliably, and it was expected of them to do their part along with help tanks and healers while they dps in order to succeed, is it really the trinity anymore?

(But they don't do as high numbers as well!)

So? Those numbers, while not high, are being expected. So if its okay for tanks and healers to encroach on dps performance, why can't dps classes do the same? I would certainly love to see dancer make an entrance, and this might as well be the reason.

[MagiusNecros]

Well, while I do not play healer, I do think this has something to do with the trinity. if a dps had the abilities of healing the party, or could tank reliably, and it was expected of them to do their part along with help tanks and healers while they dps in order to succeed, is it really the trinity anymore?

It's because in some cases the trinity has failed. It's not about each role sticking to their role. As time goes on it's all about each class using all their abilities to do all 3 at once to the best of their ability. The only thing that hasn't changed is classes specialized in one role have abilities to fulfill that role the best. Healers provide the best healing, tanks aggro control and damage mitigation, and DPS on damage. All 3 roles all have a form of contributing to the roles other classes specialize in.

[Odett]

Well, while I do not play healer, I do think this has something to do with the trinity. if a dps had the abilities of healing the party, or could tank reliably, and it was expected of them to do their part along with help tanks and healers while they dps in order to succeed, is it really the trinity anymore?

We're dealing with "if's" here, though. DPS can't reliably heal others, or tank effectively, because they lack the abilities to do so. We play using a trinity, but it's worth to see what your job can do outside the trinity task that you're assigned in order to push boundaries and help out your group members more, because ultimately, that's your real job: to help your other group members the most you can. Healers can do this because they are not required to heal all the time. It's not just limited to healers, however. For example, if I run a dungeon as a PLD and my healer is DPSing, I'll tell them that I will Clemency myself because PLD AoE damage is nearly nonexistent sans Circle of Scorn, that way or group can clear pulls in a more effective manner. Granted, I can't Clemency myself forever, but it's a nice thing you can do as a task outside your assigned role in the trinity in order to make up for my lack of AoE DPS.

It's better to look at the trinity and your job in it as the absolute minimum that is required of you, and it helps your group when you strive to perform tasks beyond what is required. I hope I understood your question correctly.

So? Those numbers, while not high, are being expected. So if its okay for tanks and healers to encroach on dps performance, why can't dps classes do the same? I would certainly love to see dancer make an entrance, and this might as well be the reason.

I answered that in the first paragraph of this post. Also, a SCH's DPS can be very close with that of a DPS role, so it IS quite substantial.

[Kallera]

I answered that in the first paragraph of this post. Also, a SCH's DPS can be very close with that of a DPS role, so it IS quite substantial.

Doesn't cut into the worth of a dps then? If the other roles have jobs that can do damage comparable to a dps job, well that sounds like a good idea for people tired of dps players.

Why do these threads always end up the same way?

[Odett]

Doesn't cut into the worth of a dps then?

There's a few pages back in this thread where someone was trying to make a point similar to this but in a very immature way. No, not at all. Your question would only make sense if there was a group cap on DPS. There isn't. If you have the tools to help you group beyond what's required of you, you should do it. It's as simple as that.

[Kallera]

There's a few pages back in this thread where someone trying to make a point similar to this but in a very immature way. No, not at all. Your question would only make sense if there was a group cap on DPS. There isn't. If you have the tools to help you group beyond what's required of you, you should do it. It's as simple as that.

Alright, I understand. But I give this lesson about a week before the trinity starts blaming each other again, its like the airline food joke of forum threads.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

Doesn't cut into the worth of a dps then? If the other roles have jobs that can do damage comparable to a dps job, well that sounds like a good idea for people tired of dps players.

Why do these threads always end up the same way?

I say we should save our replies and just copypasta everything over and over again whenever the subject comes up.