The arrogance of some people

[Kaurie]

I can't find the post. Anyway someone made a post about how a 'good' healer can drop roughly 1,000dps on a group of trash mobs, and roughly 600dps on a boss. There are tanks that can drop some heavy dps as well. In this post, it was stated (This isn't exact quote, I apologize) "If you have a healer and tank that dps, it's basically like having another compitent dps." Really, numerous other posts spit out numbers and go about stating this same thing, just less poinent than the one I am referencing.

So...I'm not being salty...I have read other posts....According to most of you, Tank dps + Healer dps = another dps in party. Logically, this means we don't need one dps in a party. Dorander....we dont' need you man, you want us to do your job, that means you don't have to.

Your conclusion doesn't follow.

I don't understand why you think that having 3 DPS is the same as having 2 DPS?

Sounds like someone else isn't reading the posts. Skimming maybe? It's ok, it's a lot to take in, I forgive you.

You're idea of people suggesting white mage dps is optional is very....loose. I see a lot of people saying you are bad if you don't do it...that is kind of a shitty option, isn't it? 'If you don't dps as healer. You are bad.' doesn't sound like much of an option to me.

Sure is, you have the option to be bad.

The dungeon is desiend to get through with 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps. Tank dps + healer dps = 1 dps. Cut out the extra dps...it's optional...we dont' need him. Now we have 1 Healer (DPS) + 1 Tank (DPS) + 1 DPS (DPS). The second one is now optional, we don't need him. It's faster, but not required.

Hmm true, Fractals and Neverreap were designed to be done in i145-170 gear. We should probably carry those around and swap to an i160 gearset when we run them too.

[RuleofThree]

This just sounds like you're complaining about things being done faster and more efficiently. Yet again, not a single person here asking for Healer's to DPS is telling them to BE a DPS, just to contribute with their DPS spells while they don't need to heal/buff. Healers do get enough down time for this.

Sounds like someone else isn't reading the posts. Skimming maybe? It's ok, it's a lot to take in, I forgive you.

You're idea of people suggesting white mage dps is optional is very....loose. I see a lot of people saying you are bad if you don't do it...that is kind of a shitty option, isn't it? 'If you don't dps as healer. You are bad.' doesn't sound like much of an option to me.

[RuleofThree]

Your conclusion doesn't follow.

I don't understand why you think that having 3 DPS is the same as having 2 DPS?

The dungeon is desiend to get through with 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps. Tank dps + healer dps = 1 dps. Cut out the extra dps...it's optional...we dont' need him. Now we have 1 Healer (DPS) + 1 Tank (DPS) + 1 DPS (DPS). The second one is now optional, we don't need him. It's faster, but not required.

[Niwashi]

People can't agree on this topic because whenever it's discussed, each person posting changes the scenario to whichever supports the position they want. Is it reasonable for other party members to ask the healer to do more DPS? It depends on the situation.

a) Healer throwing out an occasional heal, and otherwise standing around doing nothing most of the time. Another party member asks them to DPS. Is that a reasonable request? Yes.

b) Healer is swamped with trying to keep everyone alive due to a squishy tank, poor threat management party wide, people standing in avoidable AoE, or whatever, so there's no chance for the healer to DPS. Another party member asks them to DPS. Is that a reasonable request? No.

There is no right answer to whether it's justifiable to ask a healer to DPS, because both answers have times when they're correct.

[Odett]

I suppose that is true, so ignore my comment on savage. It still holds true that healers are expected to carry bad*DPS in non savage content though. There's already several posts in this very thread that basically say, from the healers that DPS at every opportunity, "Go ahead and be bad DPS, we'll carry you", though, which is what I take issue with.

A healer should never be blamed for a wipe due to a DPS check if DPS players are underperfoming, but at the same time it's also a little childish not to play your best when someone else isn't. Nothing's gonna get done if you go around with that mentality, you know? A bad DPS in the group isn't going to keep me from playing my best or doing what I'd normally do in a better scenario (hey, it's like parsers could hold DPS accountable for playing poorly and everyone would see when the lowest performing DPS blames a healer for not meeting a group dps check, but that's another topic altogether).

[SlyTribal]

I suppose that is true, so ignore my comment on savage. It still holds true that healers are expected to carry bad*DPS in non savage content though. There's already several posts in this very thread that basically say, from the healers that DPS at every opportunity, "Go ahead and be bad DPS, we'll carry you", though, which is what I take issue with.

Most of the people posting in this thread supporting Whm dps would take issue with that as well. Everyone in the party should be using their full potential, no matter what content it is. What is the point of playing an MMO if you aren't out to better your characters? Even if you aren't looking for Hardcore EG, you would still better yourself as much as you can. Sure you could play for the storyline, but then why would you want to be doing these dungeons which don't count? (not actually meaning you yourself here, just people in general) Healer's standing around doing nothing when there are no heals needed, or overhealing when it isn't needed could be using that time to just add their dps to what is already being generated, kill things that tiny bit faster, which even assists in less damage if mobs die faster.

[KaitlanKela]

If you're a healer who doesn't wanna DPS (or really any player in any role who doesn't feel like they wanna use their whole toolkit in situations where it would be appropriate because "not my job"), then don't. Nobody can make you. You may get some grief from people who think it's dumb that you spend 75% of your time in an instance doing literally nothing. Some people might kick you for it. Some people may just complain. Who cares what they think, right? Play how you want and move along.

The problem comes when you complain that people are upset with your playstyle. Fact: that playstyle is not efficient. Stop trying to tell people that they should just accept that. If you're not contributing as much as you can on purpose, they have every right to complain/kick you: you're essentially harassing them. (Personal opinion: that's an overreaction when the problem could just be ignored with some patience, but the fact remains)

Also, nowhere in this game does it say "a healer's job is to only (x)". Never happens. They categorize the jobs based on their toolkits to make sure that a random party has access to all different skill types in order to maximize their chance of clearing the instance. That is literally ALL your role is. It doesn't come with a job description or any sort of limitation. You are imposing that on yourself. That is why people get frustrated with you. You are only contributing 70% of what you could be to the group because of artificial, self-imposed restraints.

As long as this game is set up where healers can do more DPS in their off-time than they have support spells in their toolkit to increase the actual DPS's output (or changed to where there is no healer downtime), there will be NO CHANGE to the meta. Sorry. Can we be done now?

[Imoen]

There is no right answer to whether it's justifiable to ask a healer to DPS, because both answers have times when they're correct.

Quit making sense! Not allowed! Get out of here with that stuff! lol

[Yukariko]

If you're not contributing as much as you can, they have every right to complain/kick you: you're essentially harassing them.

hmmm.... so next time I'm sat at less than a 1000 mp and a bard doesn't sing ballad for me when I ask nicely, I can kick them for harassment?
or if I tank and require goad and don't get it...
they're not using their full tool set...

what a lovely community we have <3

[RuleofThree]

Sure is, you have the option to be bad.

If it was an option in the first place, which it isn't. When people are kicked or harassed to the point of leaving, it isn't an option anymore, then let the healers take it without getting all bitchy. 'Healers that don't dps are bad' is an opinion. A bad one that that, but that is also an opinion. I go back to my original statement. Do whatever you want be it dps or heal, either way, you will get judged, and you will be bitched at if judgement was not deemed acceptable. This is fact.