Gerun Oracles

[Agrotc]

I think the verse is honestly pretty telling, combined with some other things points brought up in the game.
I've been mulling over a lot of this for a while but I haven't lurked here in a while so I don't know if anyone else has touched on anything similar:

We know that The Echo essentially works by touching the soul of someone else and that in Japanese it is referred to as the "超える力". 超える means "To exceed" but also "To cross over/pass through". And I think the Prime Ascian is incredibly representative of the latter, as by fusing into one Lahabrea and Igeyorhm essentially passed through the boundaries of each other existences and became one. The incident with the Sahagin was more or less the same thing. I think at it's very core, this is the true purpose of the Echo, allowing things to become one.

The Blessing of Light on the other hand I think is the direct opposite of that. Essentially, it's a wall. It's used to shield you from Ultima. What else do walls do? They separate and divide things along their boundaries. Which I think is ultimately the reason why the Prime Ascian is forced apart, based on the line after you defeat it right before they split back:
"What walls are these? Arghh, Damn you, Hydaelyn" or "魂の境界が造られている" lit. The boundaries of the soul have been constructed.
The verse plays right into that.
Before Hydaelyn and Zodiark separated, all creation was one. By separating Hydaelyn imposed boundaries upon creation, things were divided into 14 whatevers, and for the time being the balance was shifted far towards her. In response to this Zodiark created/recruited the Ascians to weaken her etc and cause the Rejoining. This would ultimately undo the boundaries created by Hydaelyn, everything would literally once again become one (i.e. form the Sea once again) and would quite literally be the end of the world as we know it, and the other terms for the Rejoining fit in with that.

Others have touched on the last two lines better than I can so I don't really have anything to add about those.

Now I'm rather fuzzy on this, but I believe we've been told that Echo users have been showing up in greater numbers more recently compared to the past. This I think is merely a symptom of Hydaelyn waning, and Zodiark growing stronger. People are simply being born with the "boundaries" of their soul weak enough that others can instinctively pass through just enough to see their memories etc. If people knew how to "push" harder on those boundaries it would likely result in another Prime Ascian type being coming into existence.

[Cilia]

Actually, it's stated by Krile in 3.1 that numerous Echo users only pop up on the cusp of an Umbral Calamity. It's likely something within Hydaelyn's control, as if she is the one who constructs the barriers that separate souls, then it's likely she can relax them whenever she wants - the people who have the Echo are just ones she relaxed the barriers on. Just why she does so around Calamities remains a question, but it's also possible that Echo users being born in greater numbers around Calamities is not a result of Hydaelyn's influence at all but rather a natural phenomenon due to more Umbral aether building up, and people just attribute it to Hydaelyn trying to create "saviors" because they don't know any better, or perhaps something else still.

As for why Elidibus is letting us live for now... it's apparently because he thinks we'll be swayed to his point of view once we know what he does. Just why he refuses to tell us this awful truth has been nagging me forever, but my best guess is that it's one of those terrible truths we wouldn't believe unless we learned it for ourselves. He's unique in that regard, as the rest of the Ascians we encounter have no qualms about using lethal force; while Lahabrea preferred to toy with and emotionally abuse us during our first fight, during the second and as a part of the Ascian Prime, he pulled no punches. Same goes for Igeyorhm, who restrained us to get the key to Azys Lla, confident we couldn't stop her afterward. Nabriales holds nothing back at any point. Elidibus finds our Echo use intriguing, while the rest of the Ascians couldn't care less.

I still hold the hypothesis that all souls were originally one, either as Zodiark and Hydaelyn is the one who divvied up his power to kill him / keep him sleeping and put it into us mortals, or perhaps further still that Hydaelyn and Zodiark were originally one being as well. The thing about the moon is kinda shaky, though...

Pretty sure Elidibus isn't Zodiark himself. Like all the Ascians he appears to be an intended avatar of his will, but he apparently thinks of Zodiark as a being greater than himself. When discussing us with Nabriales he states that he has the same goal as the rest of the Ascians, he's simply pursuing a different venue, and the other Ascians clearly don't show him the respect he'd deserve if Elidibus was Zodiark.

"Rejoining" being termed "extinction" and "dimension collapse" in other languages makes a lot of sense... I always figured these were two possible interpretations of the term, though just what exactly that means is up in the air.

Can they add a Darksteel Foil hat to the game? I have plenty and it would be helpful...

[CyrilLucifer]

The problem, Agrotc, is that you basically just spelled out FFXI's CoP plot. Like, word for word, in FFXIV terms rather than XI ones.

I don't want to think that they'd recycle a plot so blatantly like that from their earlier MMO. CoP was the second expansion for XI, too. Yoshi did mention make a direct comparison between the XI multiverse and XIV recently, so you could argue that way for reusing the plot, I guess.

[Belhi]

Actually, though its hard to say with Elidibus, I got the feeling that the Ascians generally saw us as another piece in the whole situation to manipulate. Several times in HW they mention that we have been useful but we are growing too powerful and becoming a liability, particularly in the SMN story where they basically start gunning for us the moment they realise we are about to bind Bahumat's essence.

While the Ascians have certainly messed with us before I think they have only gone all out as of HW. In Nabriales's case, since he seemed to think he had what he needed to cause the rejoining I suspect he didn't see any value in not killing us.

We haven't interacted with Elidibus for a while and I'm not sure he doesn't even see his fellow Ascians and potential pawns but he certainly has set a champion of his side against us who clearly is hostile. The Warriors of Darkness where hardly pulling punches when we met them. Elidibus has generally avoided direct confrontation in our interactions with him. More to the point he has made very little effort to teach us this 'truth' which apparently would change our minds when, if true, it would be by far the best way to remove us as a obstacle to the Ascian plans. Unless of course, our efforts are part of his plan in the same way the other Ascians used our efforts to drive the Beast tribes to summon more and more powerful Primals.

[Fenral]

Unfortunately I never played FFXI, so that section of the multiverse is out of my grasp. Only other world restored to it's "true form" I can think of is Final Fantasy V, and I've brought that up before. Suffice to say, while it was a massive event, and Bartz and co. were absolutely certain it was evil due to the cacklings of the root-mustache-twirler who planned it, the event itself proved relatively benign, and Exdeath's true evil plan simply required that event to take place.

Going totally off the rails, to the point that I can't possibly be right at all and should just copyright this now for later use. I wonder if, rather than the "original form" being all life reduced to the orange Tang of oneness (dammit, Gendo), there might exist some essential other half to every being that is kept separate by the nature of the universe. If something were to happen to one of the two halves, it might reflect on the other in some way, perhaps altering the boundaries of their soul. We gained the Echo when our other half died, and Darklander gained his when the 1.0 posterboy died at Cartenau. There could be Chrono Cross logic at work. This might also be why the Ascians that are "of this world" can materialize freely, while those that are not require a vessel.

I say this because I don't think it's going to be as simple as dark==nothingness. It can, sure, in any other system, but as Moose pointed out about Astral and Umbral, Umbral isn't "nothing" so much as an inversion: the equal but opposite force. We've been beaten over the head with the possibility that another world exists out there, tied to ours. There may be some fundamental difficulty with coexistence, and there are certainly conceptual issues that would arise when the light and dark halves of a being merged, but travel between them seems to be possible in enough of a capacity that I don't think it's a nonworld that nonexists out there so much as a substantial other side of the coin.

[CyrilLucifer]

Disregarding what I think is actually true, as I've said in the past, what I'd like to see regarding Elidibus is basically someone who is not evil for evil's sake, because darkness is the worst and antagonistic by default and light is the bestest and goodest and purest of pure purity. I know this is a Japanese game, but we've gone for a greyer morality recently, is it so much to ask that I have some grey morality in the bigger picture as well?

Realistically, what I think is that Elidibus is using everyone as a pawn. Including the WoD and you. It's as stated earlier, Elidibus is talking to the WoD when he mentions the threat you are, how much damage you're doing to the balance, etc., but that might not actually be representative of what he really thinks. I think you're still useful to him, because Lahabrea and Igeyorhm state outright that you were useful to them and their master.

What I want to happen is for Elidibus' plans to all crumble early, preferably before the end of 4.0, so that he actually loses his status as "main villain" to one of the many, many black robed Ascians we haven't encountered yet (like Altima), because they get ticked off by his approach and attempt to stop/silence/hinder him. That would put the whole multi-factions into greater perspective. Pashtarot is still MIA, too, so he's bound to appear sooner, rather than later.

(What I don't want is for Minfilia to be a super special snowflake to be used by Elidibus like Catiua and Alma. Since Yoshi P has mentioned his utter love for TO and Matsuno's works multiple times, this is worrying for me. That would actually make me drop the game, lore-wise.)

The Trial I have to kill Elidibus in will be a sad, sad, sad day indeed.

[Belhi]

Im actually thinking that Elidibus's plans could unravel if Lahabrea actually returns. If he does something assuming Lahabrea is gone and then the other Ascian turns up to throw a wrench in the works and throw into question of Elidibus's goals with the other Ascians. Its always a bit more fun when there is a multidirectional struggle cause then twists can come out of no where. I will say it is generally Lahabrea that Hydaelyn seems to warn us about the most. I don't remember her ever really saying anything about Elidibus.

Im actually wondering if the big 'forget' that happened during the last calamity will become significant. Its interesting that its specifically the WoL who everyone suddenly forgets. The Tales of the Calamity seem to suggest that for some their presence at the Battle was even wiped when Merlwyb's second in command cant even remember her order to cover the retreat.

[Kaiser-Ace]

The Trial I have to kill Elidibus in will be a sad, sad, sad day indeed.

I know we will inevitably clash against him, but my personal worry is that by the time it happens there will be no "Sympathetic Villain" aspect left and he'll become your saturday morning "Bwahahaha! THE WORLD IS MINE!!!" cartoon villain.

If I were to pick it, Elidibus and The WoL would collide after "The Truth" is revealed (via Darklander in my version) and, while acknowledging what he says is true in a sense, that we still clash simply because of the impasse the situation has made. That no matter who is actually correct neither we nor Elidibus can suffer the other's existence and interference any longer. Ending with Elidibus giving us "The Final Piece" of the proverbial puzzle so that we can right what he was unable too.

[CyrilLucifer]

I know we will inevitably clash against him, but my personal worry is that by the time it happens there will be no "Sympathetic Villain" aspect left and he'll become your saturday morning "Bwahahaha! THE WORLD IS MINE!!!" cartoon villain.

Even if Elidibus goes full on megalomaniac, I'll still be sad if I have to kill him. I'm not going to lie - Haurchefant? I actually thought he was a bit creepy. Ysayle? Okay, Ysayle's was sad, but I kept thinking about how terrible an idea it was for her to use a Primal's destructive force for the WoL's behalf right in front of the Garleans and so it hindered my sense of tragedy, I suppose. Lahabrea? His death was by far the saddest part of Heavensward for me. He was my favorite character and now I only have Elidibus. And he's probably going to end up at the wrong end of my weapon, too.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Even if Elidibus goes full on megalomaniac, I'll still be sad if I have to kill him. I'm not going to lie - Haurchefant? Ysayle? Okay. Lahabrea? His death was by far the saddest part of Heavensward for me.

Lord H was sad, Ysayle was disappointing (was totally hoping she'd turn Scion), and Lahabrea will always be my personal arch enimie (because he's a villan you just love to hate), And I really want to see Nero again (and Gaius if he lives) but Elidibus is infuriating the way he's turning out.

He's pulling a Gilbez on us with his BS enigmas and helping but not helping but if he goes full Emperor Mateus (FF2) on us I'll gladly kill him and consider everything he said invalid. Final Fantasy needs more Caius and Gabtanths and less Kefkas and Sephiroths.