Novice / Beginner / Training Hall -- General Discussion Topic

[Brian_]

snip.

Well obviously, this mode is not supposed to be a substitute for content. Due to their development issues, it might end up being just that but that's all the more reason that we need this not to be the next Lords of Verminion. If they are going to spend development time on it, it needs to accomplish something. And, I think it has the potential to accomplish a lot if properly tuned and incentivized.

But yes, they obviously need content to aspire towards. They've already said that the next branch of Alexander will be better tuned for accessibility. The issue is that this mode still needs to be independently viable. As others here have said, the people who want to do the harder content will either already be proactive about improving themselves or they will skip the training hall entirely and just learn through attempting content (and in the process wipe groups with their poor play). This problem is abundant in NA PFs where people will fake their progression to try and lie their way to a clear.

So, you have to incentivize the content, and in the more draconian cases, you need to gate content behind the hall. Maybe there is a better way but that's what this discussion is for.

that's where I disagree.
skill and attitude are not interconnected.
people's skills are different, and how others face these are different.
Not everyone blows up in anger when they're faced with less than good performance from other people.
You don't see someone's true character when everything is going smoothly.

You can't disagree with reality, though. If you have spent any amount of time on NA data centers, have listened to the discussions on Mogtalk, LBR, reddit, BG, these forums, and elsewhere, it's very obvious that while not everyone will respond in a negative way to abysmal play, some people will and many accounts of such experiences are everywhere. Improving the skill-floor of your player-base will deal with a major contributor towards DF and PF toxicity.

[silentwindfr]

@brian_

the trouble is like i have said, not everyone want to partake in statics anymore, some drama have leave scar quite deep... i was a hardcore raider before and believe me i don't want to take part into statics.... more i don't feel rewarding to spend soo many time to redo the same content over and over that have no replayability. while being exposed to drama.... a lot of people like me want to have fun and challenge, but refuse to be imposed to take part into statics anymore.

before focus soo much on raid, they really to add a better way to make people meet each other and add content doable with smaller group for allows people to simply get back the will to do raid. but no... that not them point, they put all them effort into balancing hardcore content, where they have a huge lack of midcore content that are needed.

[Brian_]

snip.

I understand your issue but I think it's unrelated to the beginner's hall. The lack of content you are asking for and your personal issues with statics is another topic entirely.

The beginner's hall should be more about getting people ready for the mid / end-game and making sure they're ready to transition from the casual content to something harder.

[l---------------l]

Maybe my dream will come true!.... To see +1200 DPS in DF when doing roulette ex without people of my trust!.... Or the healer doing a 400 DPS+... Or the tank over 700.... (I know, I know... Those are small numbers, but, hey, are my 'maximum' hopes for DF. We can say RNG is quite a b**** with me...)

[silentwindfr]

I understand your issue but I think it's unrelated to the beginner's hall. The lack of content you are asking for and your personal issues with statics is another topic entirely.

The beginner's hall should be more about getting people ready for the mid / end-game and making sure they're ready to transition from the casual content to something harder.

it's directly link, since people had only group of 4 people content until the raid you can't expect them to have build enough network for be part of a static directly... plus most of the statics out are simply not recruiting if you are already a very good player.

that the whole point, where is the content between faceroll content (hunt, diadem, dungeon) and the raid? no where, it's like suddenly give a car to someone and ask it to drive it without know how it work.
them major error is to think that focusing on hardcore content will make people magically want to do it, that idiot.
we see it with alexander normal, a lot of group had a hard time on the A4 for a long moment in df, why? because people don't have the place for train and earn the experience. the beginner all will give them the base but not the experience needed for harder content!

[Brian_]

snip.

Again, why are you bringing up a lack of mid-core content in this thread? This is not about the lack of mid-core content, it is about the beginner's hall. I already said that of course there needs to be content to aspire towards and that's really all that needs to be said.

And yea, the beginner hall will teach them the basics but not give them experience with actual content. But, that's certainly a lot better than now when so many people don't even know the basics and don't have a proper path of progression from your face-roll content into anything harder. Right now, you have to go outside of the game to become ready for mid-core content.

Onto your point about static recruitment -- I play on one of the largest servers and still we have issues with recruitment. The primary reason is that there just isn't an influx of good players or a large enough pool of good players to combat burn-out or incompatibility issues. If there is someone out there worth recruiting, we will find them. We know all the good players on our server because it's not like there are that many of them.

It's much easier to get experience in content if you go in with solid fundamentals. That's why top-end progression groups clear faster. They know what they need to do, it's just a matter of adapting to the fight mechanics. When you have a DPS with a top-end DPS of 600, no one is going to want to teach them to fight and their experience is going to consist of getting kicked and ridiculed. But, if you have someone that's comfortable pulling 1400 DPS but just needs experience, it's a much smoother teaching experience.

[silentwindfr]

we will see, i simply wanted to point out that give tool without place where to use them are nice but.... not efficient. beginner hall can be good or bad, we will not know before 3.2.
however we can point out already them lack of understanding about the playerbase that need to be covered to some point later.

believe me, i wish the beginner hall to work and help new player, but soo far people don't get a lot of reason to improve and that the whole point. if they don't give player an incentive reason outside hardcore raid, you can be sure that they will do it for the reward and barely remember what they did try to learn in the beginner hall.

[Kallera]

The reason a smooth curve of content going into raids is needed is because without the proper venue to apply the skills players will go through the hall, but lose the lessons from it. This is why mechanics training is also as important as rotation training.

[Beskar]

Unless this goes into extreme depth about what each class should be doing then I don't think it will do a thing. The game does a horrible job as it is explaining a lot of things (I still see people going around as classes rather than jobs in high level content). Even if we got another page or tab saying 'Core Spells' where it then lists a recommended usage of said spell seeing as people don't read tooltips either. For Example,

Cure 2 - Use when a player has taken heavy damage. Use Cure in other cases.
Regen - Keep applied to the tank and use on others when there is little chance of big damage. Do not use inbetween trash pulls.

Just something to give out more information.

[Amiaze]

The people who would actually be motivated to improve because of a training hall are the same people who already research optimal rotations and proper play.

This. The Hall will mostly satisfy PS3 and PS4 players who don't have the ability to parse their damage output alone. I could imagine that perhaps a title could be attached to completing the Hall, but SE wouldn't risk it because, in their minds, players would demand a DPS to show their title before letting them run with them. Anything that could even remotely cause players to be excluded from content is frowned upon. That's the reason the elemental wheel (as well as other gameplay features) was done away with.

More likely than not, there'll just be an achievement tied to it, and that's all.