Novice / Beginner / Training Hall -- General Discussion Topic

[Brian_]

Why is there no discussion regarding this?

I see a lot of topics complaining about housing, the relic, etc. But, this should be a much more focal issue.

Why? Because it addresses a much more fundamental and important issue this game has -- the general toxicity of DF / PF and the overall attitude of the game's player-base.

If there is anything that SE cannot and should not mess up, this is it. And yet, there is no discussion to let them know how important this is or what we expect from it as a community.

Just imagine a world where this mode succeeds in raising the general aptitude of the player-base. Think about all the horrendous DF experiences you've had with a tank that couldn't tank, a healer that couldn't heal, or a DPS that couldn't DPS. Think about a world where PF clear groups actually cleared and content was much more approachable in general. Think about all the toxicity that could've been avoided if nobody had reason to complain. It'd do much more for the overall gaming experience than a fix to housing, a redone relic quest, a better tier of raiding, or more content.

People mourn the fact that SE said they wouldn't be releasing another primal fight as difficult as Thordan EX. Who can fault them when they have to release content that is appropriately tuned to be accessible? When people want more raid content, ask yourself why SE would invest anything into something experienced by so few? If the player-base was better, SE would have much more design freedom going forward.

This mode should be getting a lot more attention than it currently is. And, my fear is that SE will treat it in a similar way -- as an afterthought.

[hagare]

one trial isn't gonna change the people's attitude.
it's not their skill that's the problem. it's their attitude.

though having said that, I have the same hope that you do xD
a better(attitude-wise) community.

[lawlHT]

The people who would actually be motivated to improve because of a training hall are the same people who already research optimal rotations and proper play.

If you think beginners hall is going to improve the player bases overall skill level you're delusional

[silentwindfr]

the trouble is not add this sort of feature, but give a drive to the player to improve.... but there we hit a wall....what are the content that ask to improve yourself?
raid at 8, not everyone is part of a static nor have 7 friend to do that sort of content. more important a lot of the static have become quite.... horrible in them methode... making people less than wanting to be part of one or try to create one.

another point, all the content that ask a good skill are already hardcore content.... Savage is hardcore content, thordan less but it's still a very high level of skill recquiring. the trouble is to ask people to go do this sort of content that are generally reserved to a minority. where are the midcore content? where are the 4 player hard content? no where to be seen.

ask people to train and become better, is nice, offer them place for use this skill is better! let's face it, raiding is less and less done.... people have reach the saturation point since only raid is the challenging content. you can't hope that people will train for join something that are tedious and far to be fun....without forget that lead to tons of drama.

the hall is a good idea, but without the rest for support it, it will not shine.

if you think about it, it's like ask casual to jump to the hardcore without training or get experience in content midcore! i fail to understand why they continue to deliver a content that are barely done by the community (savage content) instead to balance the progression of the game first! diadem will and must'nt be into the progression. you can't ask people to become better in zergfest! where the skill is close of none!

the trouble is Yoshida and it team are japanese, they have a different culture than us... and instead to try to understand us.... they want us to do what they feel is natural for them.... but feel quite inadequate for us.

[MeridaQ]

The people who would actually be motivated to improve because of a training hall are the same people who already research optimal rotations and proper play.

If you think beginners hall is going to improve the player bases overall skill level you're delusional

Actually I think that is exactly what SE is trying to do. Raising the base level will have an affect on the overall viewpoints of players. Obviously not everyone but we have to start somewhere and the Japanese servers have done it we can too.

[Brian_]

one trial isn't gonna change the people's attitude.
it's not their skill that's the problem. it's their attitude.

though having said that, I have the same hope that you do xD
a better(attitude-wise) community.

Skill and attitude are interconnected in this game. If a tank is failing at his role, it's hard to treat them the same way you would a much better tank. If your EX-roulette is filled with wipes and takes an hour to complete, it's likely someone won't be happy. A lot of toxicity and elitism is born from a gap in player skill.

The people who would actually be motivated to improve because of a training hall are the same people who already research optimal rotations and proper play.

If you think beginners hall is going to improve the player bases overall skill level you're delusional

I think treating it in such extremes is what is really delusional.

The reality is if it's appropriately tuned and incentivized, people will do it. And, if in doing it, you force them to improve, you've succeeded.

The key point is the incentive. There needs to be a proper incentive to completing the lessons. SE needs to take a real look at what rewards are most coveted and gate such rewards behind this mode.

Let's put realism aside for a moment and look at some examples -- what if they gated unlocking the next set of roulettes behind the completion of the training hall? What if they gated the next step of the relic behind the training hall? What if they gated the MSQ behind the training hall? What if they gated the next expansion behind the training hall? What if our next set of AF gear is gated behind the training hall?

My point is this -- people will do the mode, either willingly or forced, if the incentive is strong enough.

Just look at the relic. Tons of people pissed and moaned about it. And, at the end of the day, a lot are still doing it (even if reluctantly). Why? Because of the carrot on the stick.

[lawlHT]

Actually I think that is exactly what SE is trying to do. Raising the base level will have an affect on the overall viewpoints of players. Obviously not everyone but we have to start somewhere and the Japanese servers have done it we can too.

You can give players all the tools they need to improve.

You still can't make them give a shit

[silentwindfr]

Actually I think that is exactly what SE is trying to do. Raising the base level will have an affect on the overall viewpoints of players. Obviously not everyone but we have to start somewhere and the Japanese servers have done it we can too.

japanese have a very different culture, there if you don't try to become the best you are nothing... it's not the case in other country... in europe, america and other part of the world, when you play a game you don't only try to be the best.... you will have the roleplayer that don't care about be the number one.... or casual player that enjoy the fun of the game when they can play.... or midcore that look for challenge accessible (meaning without be forced to be tie to a statics).... and many other type of player.
you have player that will enjoy the grind, other that preference challenge, some that are patient or some that don't want to spend outrageous time for get something...
but there instead to learn to understand them community.... they simply look at the most visible community... the hardcore gamer and we see where it lead...

them error is to have not do a survey in 2 years for know what people really feel. instead to listen to the most vocal and visible community.

You can give players all the tools they need to improve.

You still can't make them give a shit

it's more where to use this skill.... if you are not part of a static you can't do any raid.... outside the one in DF. or you will need to spend 1-2 hours for get people into a PF....
we have only one content that recquire skill and it always recquire a group of 8 people... and in europe and america is often lead to a static to offer this sort of content! it's them fault to not know how work player outside japan... not the player fault, if you create a product that are not adapted to the people aimed to it.... how you want to succeed?

[SpookyGhost]

Hopefully the beginner hall gives hefty EXP or some other reward for completing it, that way everyone isn't dissuaded from using it just because they don't want to improve. Put a mouse in a maze and he won't solve the maze, put cheese in there and he'll have it done in no time.

I also agree with silentwindfr, the game really teaches you nothing until you reach a wall. Used to be Titan HM or Coil, now it's EX Primals and Savage. I think back to when I played TERA and you learned a lot in your first dungeon - even in the open world fighting BAMs you learned a massive amount, but here we have... weak mobs in the open world... and Sastasha. Not really the best groundwork if I'm honest.

[hagare]

Skill and attitude are interconnected in this game. If a tank is failing at his role, it's hard to treat them the same way you would a much better tank. If your EX-roulette is filled with wipes and takes an hour to complete, it's likely someone won't be happy. A lot of toxicity and elitism is born from a gap in player skill.

that's where I disagree.
skill and attitude are not interconnected.
people's skills are different, and how others face these are different.
Not everyone blows up in anger when they're faced with less than good performance from other people.
You don't see someone's true character when everything is going smoothly.