to those japanese speakers...

[Kosmos992k]

Saving this quote for future parser threads whenever someone is against dps players being held accountable.(anti-parser)

LOL! You really should read my posts more closely since I'm neither against a personal parser, nor an optional group one, and very much believe that poor DPS need to be held accountable. But, that is all a different discussion to this, so let's not drag it out here.

[NoahArks]

If you look in game most people are fine with relics like myself its the vocal minority that does a lot of nay-saying and doom and gloom posts. There really isn't a problem with relics. I fully expected a grind because it was what they have done previously.

It's not about grinding, but what kind of grind they gave.

[AnaviAnael]

It's not about grinding, but what kind of grind they gave.

I have to agree with this, especially after how people complained in 2.0 about the atmas. That's the one part that baffles me. I'd argue that atmas were the most complained about part of relic upgrades, and they gave us the same thing all over again. From what I'm seeing from friends, nobody takes as much issue with farming tomes, beastcoins, alex, etc. since you can actively see your progression. Personally, I like doing things knowing I'm getting somewhere. I think this is perhaps the perspective of most people.

[UBERHAXED]

You appear to think that all discussion and argument consists of binary points. The US work ethic is poorer than that I've seen in the UK and Germany. I've lived and worked both sides of the Atlantic, I'm speaking from my personal experience and knowledge. Your experience may vary. However, why does saying that somehow contradict the other point? In a relative sense I would place Japanese workers ahead of European ones in terms of their work ethic and efficiency, and I'd put Europe (including the UK for the most part) ahead of the USA when it comes to work ethic and efficiency Not a very popular opinion on this side of the Atlantic I am certain, we tend to view ourselves (Americans) as the best and do not tolerate dissent.

Woah... let's not compare the unemployed in a country full of immigrants to a country full a native people. For the upper echelon of American (those who are not in poverty, which to no surprise poverty is mostly immigrants) in corporate we work harder than in any country I've seen. My company acquired another company in the Netherlands and after a few months the first comment I hear them say is "Wow you guys never take vacation". Any let's not forget, in Japan you can apparently have your whole staff take vacation at the same time, forget deadlines, because they "deserved it". We have people in my company who have 400 hours a vacation racked up because they haven't taken vacation in years. Oh and let's not get into labor laws. When I when to the Netherlands, apparently no employee can work more than 40 hours a week without overtime and everyone must be within viewing distance of a window and you can bring all the vodka you want to your office. Meanwhile, since we are salaried, we Americans regularly work 65-75 hour weeks and still get our regular "40 hour" salary every week with no windows and we have to ask permission to go on vacation, which can be rejected if it would affect productivity of the company.

Please don't use your own poor work ethics and say all Americans are like you. We work very hard and are on top of the world's economy for this reason. And efficiency? Not speaking for other companies but just comparing the rate SE makes software to my own company with similar sized teams (giving SE the benefit of the doubt here and assume they have 1 artist, 1 architect, 1 director, 1 person for administrative tasks, and a couple teams of 4-5 programmers, which they probably have more) they take a very long time to pipeline a very simple (in terms of modifications in patches) piece of software. Perhaps they are a but too vertical or w/e but I think the largest problem may be that they spend too much time deciding how to do things than actually writing code. I they have a single person making decisions, then there's no reason why it takes this long to release patches unless their programmers aren't very productive.

Got a but off topic though, but it's a crime to spread misinformation to this degree. Especially when you intend to lump 330 million people you don't know into a "work ethic" that you have. It may not be the case that we are working harder to achieve the same effect (because we are working smarter) but that means that they have to be a bit more efficient. I didn't bother to ask what ind of work you don't because that's irrelevant but you have made comparisons to a country you haven't worked in so at least back up your dubious claim.

As for the actual topic... maybe you don't see complaints because they don't bother post things with have no logical basis. I would not be surprised if in media in Japan they don't say things out of fear that they would be called an idiot if the majority don't agree (because their opinion is unfounded). Meanwhile in the US we can say what ever idiotic things we want (barring treasonous threats) and don't have to worry about anything.

[NoahArks]

I have to agree with this, especially after how people complained in 2.0 about the atmas. That's the one part that baffles me. I'd argue that atmas were the most complained about part of relic upgrades, and they gave us the same thing all over again. From what I'm seeing from friends, nobody takes as much issue with farming tomes, beastcoins, alex, etc. since you can actively see your progression. Personally, I like doing things knowing I'm getting somewhere. I think this is perhaps the perspective of most people.

The only step I wouldn't mind about the relics are the dungeon runs. The grinding for atma, beast tokens esos, craft items etc... etc.. is putting me off.

[Dyvid]

The only step I wouldn't mind about the relics are the dungeon runs. The grinding for atma, beast tokens esos, craft items etc... etc.. is putting me off.

Actually those are a necessary evil. Before hardy anyone did FATEs in the new area so level up was a chore between roulette. Now people can grind out FATE for better xp rather than bot in N.Than. But with so many people disliking FATE maybe it's time for SE to reexamine them to find a way to make them more epic and fun.

[Maero]

Yes many complainers
Perhaps not related to the thread per say but in case some have not seen this before
LB radio Interview

[Kaurie]

Indeed, that was the purposeful design of the original relic chain, the point being it was a long grind to allow players not running end-game to have an avenue open to them to obtain a 'good' weapon .

I thought the original relic chain required you to do Bowl of Embers, The Howling Eye and The Navel (Hard) where the Navel (Hard) was actually pretty tough in the gear level of the time.

[AzureFlare]

Actually those are a necessary evil. Before hardy anyone did FATEs in the new area so level up was a chore between roulette. Now people can grind out FATE for better xp rather than bot in N.Than. But with so many people disliking FATE maybe it's time for SE to reexamine them to find a way to make them more epic and fun.

They could also have done dungeons and laugh at the FATE plebs, to be honest. The amount of XP dungeons drop now is insane, especially combined with FC and food buffs. I'd wager enough to compensate for the potentially long queues some roles have.

[Kosmos992k]

I thought the original relic chain required you to do Bowl of Embers, The Howling Eye and The Navel (Hard) where the Navel (Hard) was actually pretty tough in the gear level of the time.

You're right I should have been more specific I was referring to the original Relic upgrade from Zenith, not the acquisition of the relic, and upgrade to Zenith. My apologies for not being clear. The original Zodiak upgrade path was designed to be a grind, as I said. That was what I was referring to. I think it matches the current relic upgrade path since the final form of the original Relic jumps a few steps and dovetails right in.