The game is more dead than it was pre-3.1

[zosia]

If you just wait long enough, all the carrots in this game are given away for no effort at all. I just did a zeta from anima phase in less than four days. I helped a friend just last week farm a kirin in less than a few hours. Hell, rewards are trivialized as soon as they come out, I am looking at you void ark and Thordan Ex. Tomorrow will be the death of thordan, there will be no reason to run it when people can just derp their way to a 210 relic killing caterpillars in the forelands or something. Why even bothering putting the ilvl 200 gear in void ark when we have derpadem and weekly twines/coats? That's also on top of the fact that not everyone enjoys playing all the classes. I personally only gear up two. My point being that gear proliferation only benefits people who want to play 3+ classes. I was full 208 on both of my jobs before void ark even came out. Outside of vanity, the rewards for doing content in this game suck and if there is anything you truly want, you just have to wait a few months and nab the "reward" with ease.

The content is boring and repetitive. SE can't seem to find a balance between rewarding and challenging. There is nothing compelling about the current end game meta and everyone is starting to understand the formula. Why grind out those TT cards? Why bother finishing the relic? Why bother raiding? Why bother with red scripts? Just wait six months to a year, swoop in to do the nerfed grind/challenge, get your rewards and unsub.

This is why risk vs reward is so important. It keeps you coming back. How special does 210 gear feel when it is so easy to get and will be invalidated so soon? Either casual or raiders, none of this content is compelling or has staying power, especially with this hyper vertical progression. Gear is invalidated even before the next raid tier is released. Why bother sticking around now when you can just come back in 12 months, be ilvl240+ within a week and grind up all the rewards in a fraction of the time it takes now?

But hey, this game is being relaunched from 1.0, they will change stuff in the next expansion, this expansion is only six months old, the dev team is small, ps3 limitations, casual vs hardcore rabble, blah blah blah ,[insert what ever excuse you like]... This game is careening down the pipes and anyone trying to defend the current end game at this point is just some white knight with their helm on backwards, because they are having a very hard time seeing the truth, this game is an inch deep and miles wide and nobody seems to like it.

[KitingGenbu]

snip

To be fair, WoW is honestly an easier game than this, but as I think you were saying its attributed to the abilities of the classes and wow has more ways to play a single class versus this one. Sure you can change classes in this game but what does that do for something you want to get leveled? Nothing. Classes in this game need more versatility to them. At least more dual classing like they did with arcanist so we can change it up job wise to level the class. Now we're starting to not even have classes anymore. Its like the team is on menopause or something. No passives. Recycled formula. Relics were for the casuals so I do not know why people think relic implementation will do anything about longevity other than 2.0's recycled system for a vanity item. I think how relics were treated in this game is what upsets me the most.

[Teryaani]

If you just wait long enough, all the carrots in this game are given away for no effort at all. I just did a zeta from anima phase in less than four days.

That's normal for past expansion material in a vertical MMO. Your prize for being on the bleeding edge of content is really just the challenge of it. Where things went pear-shaped here is how fast the ilvl leapt forward and where they put the rewards. Top tier PVE gear should be in your endgame raids. It gives the endgame players something to push for.

The quick clears of past expansion's content though? That's not a bug, it's a feature.

Tomorrow will be the death of thordan, there will be no reason to run it when people can just derp their way to a 210 relic killing caterpillars in the forelands or something.

I remember a very different relic experience than you do. It was a painful grind

Why even bothering putting the ilvl 200 gear in void ark when we have derpadem and weekly twines/coats?

Yeah, that was not a bright move on their part. Here's hoping that won't be repeated.

That's also on top of the fact that not everyone enjoys playing all the classes. I personally only gear up two. My point being that gear proliferation only benefits people who want to play 3+ classes. I was full 208 on both of my jobs before void ark even came out. Outside of vanity, the rewards for doing content in this game suck and if there is anything you truly want, you just have to wait a few months and nab the "reward" with ease.

The alliance raid wasn't meant for people doing the current top tier raid to gear up. It's meant for more casual players to gear up and endgame players to get some filler gear for alts. Other than vanity, you're not the audience for it.

This is why risk vs reward is so important. It keeps you coming back. How special does 210 gear feel when it is so easy to get and will be invalidated so soon? Either casual or raiders, none of this content is compelling or has staying power, especially with this hyper vertical progression. Gear is invalidated even before the next raid tier is released. Why bother sticking around now when you can just come back in 12 months, be ilvl240+ within a week and grind up all the rewards in a fraction of the time it takes now?

I completely agree that they messed up with the ilvl they gave and where they put it.

But hey, this game is being relaunched from 1.0, they will change stuff in the next expansion, this expansion is only six months old, the dev team is small, ps3 limitations, casual vs hardcore rabble, blah blah blah ,[insert what ever excuse you like]... This game is careening down the pipes and anyone trying to defend the current end game at this point is just some white knight with their helm on backwards, because they are having a very hard time seeing the truth, this game is an inch deep and miles wide and nobody seems to like it.

I like parts of it. Nothing white-knighty about it either. They made mistakes, but they are fixable mistakes. Maybe it's burn-out or something else, but 3.1 left me cold as well....actually for me, I think it's disappointment over LoV. That and seeing the law tome gear get eclipsed by the first patches dungeons. Seemed a bit quick to me.

[zosia]

That's normal for past expansion material in a vertical MMO. Your prize for being on the bleeding edge of content is really just the challenge of it. Where things went pear-shaped here is how fast the ilvl leapt forward and where they put the rewards. Top tier PVE gear should be in your endgame raids. It gives theendgame players something to push for.

Vertical progression concepts don't escape me. I am just tired of posting exhaustive explanations on these forums for the sake of nothing. The vertical progression in this game is absurd. Rewards are invalidated at an absurd pace regardless if you're on the bleeding edge or not.

The quick clears of past expansion's content though? That's not a bug, it's a feature.

What about current expansion content? Did you ever play 2.0 at launch? Stone vigil was more challenging than the end game dungeons and we can still see that same toothless content that has no bite repeating itself in every development choice. There is no "just right" porridge, we only have a smidgen of too hot porridge and an ocean of ice cold porridge as it relates to content difficulty.

I remember a very different relic experience than you do. It was a painful grind

The only painful experience was the atma grind. The rest was only painful if you made it that way for yourself. Most of the "grind" could be done on the back burner of your daily activities.

Yeah, that was not a bright move on their part. Here's hoping that won't be repeated.

It will be, look forward to it.

The alliance raid wasn't meant for people doing the current top tier raid to gear up. It's meant for more casual players to gear up and endgame players to get some filler gear for alts. Other than vanity, you're not the audience for it.

Then why not just put 210 gear in void ark so we can actually have some reason to run it? 210 gear is meaningless and is handed out like gum balls at a candy store, might as well make the gear options attractive to all players.

[Fevelle]

...this game is an inch deep and miles wide and nobody seems to like it.

But then you have:

- people complaining when someone proposes for multiple path/random encounters dungeons because they "don't like it".
- people complaining when someone proposes more challenging single player content because "a MMO needs to be social".
- people complaining about GARUDA NORMAL difficulty. I'm a 'casual scrub', someone that can't even think about touching savage because I don't have skills for it, but c'mon, Garuda NORMAL?
- people complaining about grinding altogether (I wonder if they ever played MMOs)
- people complaining about more focus on crafting gear and making crafting relevant
- people complaining about any time-sinks
- people complaining about MSQ gating (seriously, why are you playing a Final Fantasy?)

I could go on infinitely with this list... You can't make a game deeper with this type of heterogeneous playerbase. At all. Too much interests converging: from long term FF players like me to veteran MMO players that want to be challenged by savage content. It's hard to have a middle ground that can please both sides and the average player.

[Teryaani]

Vertical progression concepts don't escape me. I am just tired of posting exhaustive explanations on these forums for the sake of nothing. The vertical progression in this game is absurd. Rewards are invalidated at an absurd pace regardless if you're on the bleeding edge or not.

Like I said, I agree. They upped the pace of progression.

What about current expansion content? Did you ever play 2.0 at launch? Stone vigil was more challenging than the end game dungeons and we can still see that same toothless content that has no bite repeating itself in every development choice. There is no "just right" porridge, we only have a smidgen of too hot porridge and an ocean of ice cold porridge as it relates to content difficulty.

I did play at 2.0 launch. The dungeons in the 40s were tuned far worse than AK or WP. Players dreaded seeing AV come up. Somewhere around 2.2 was where I was geared well enough that I outgeared the content, but not like it is in 3.0.

The only painful experience was the atma grind. The rest was only painful if you made it that way for yourself. Most of the "grind" could be done on the back burner of your daily activities.

At it's best it was a time sink. At it's worst it was head-desk worthy. You may have better luck with RNG than I do.

It will be, look forward to it.

Maybe. I'm saying my peace (again, I'm not disagreeing with you about progression rates). Assuming that it gets passed on by ComDev (as developers don't wander in here often), then we can see how tone deaf SE is.

Then why not just put 210 gear in void ark so we can actually have some reason to run it? 210 gear is meaningless and is handed out like gum balls at a candy store, might as well make the gear options attractive to all players.

I'd rather that it not be handed out like candy at all. For all the complaints, they handled ilvl progression better in 2.0 than they are now.

I could go on infinitely with this list... You can't make a game deeper with this type of heterogeneous playerbase. At all. Too much interests converging: from long term FF players like me to veteran MMO players that want to be challenged by savage content. It's hard to have a middle ground that can please both sides and the average player.

You're right. You're basically left with throwing a bone out each patch to one or more groups and accepting that nobody is happy, but hoping that nobody is really unhappy either.

[Ayuhra]

snip.

I don't think WoW is EASIER so much as the difficulty in the two games is divided in different ways. . Here you need to do your rotation with mechanical precision and be hyper aware of your positioning. WoW is much more forgiving of individuals messing something up as long as the rest of the team is on the ball. Because of this it can afford to have much more interesting and complex encounter design. Mythic still has a low clear rate, however. I have yet to see any encounters that match, for example, Blackhand or Yogg-Saron or even Hans'gar and Franzok.

I agree with everything else you said. In other MMOs (not just WoW) there is a level of class customization. Usually one customization becomes the cookie cutter "best" but sometimes you can spec outside and still do well. Elder Scrolls Online has an interesting level of play customization. With proper allocation you can have a mage that fights dual wielding swords or a Dragon Knight with a staff and still pull good numbers. In both ESO and GW2 you can only have so many abilities on your bar at once but you can choose which abilities those are. It makes gameplay experimentation very rewarding. This is really the biggest fault I have with FFXIV. The Job system is cool but beyond that the classes are very rigid and their mandatory rotations are clunky and over long at times. It's too bad because with the Job System you could mix and match certain class abilities in interesting ways to have a truly customized experience rather than just having one or two mandatory things needed to play your chosen class at all.

[zosia]

But then you have:

- people complaining when someone proposes for multiple path/random encounters dungeons because they "don't like it".- people complaining when someone proposes more challenging single player content because "a MMO needs to be social".
- people complaining about GARUDA NORMAL difficulty. I'm a 'casual scrub', someone that can't even think about touching savage because I don't have skills for it, but c'mon, Garuda NORMAL?
- people complaining about grinding altogether (I wonder if they ever played MMOs)
- people complaining about more focus on crafting gear and making crafting relevant
- people complaining about any time-sinks
- people complaining about MSQ gating (seriously, why are you playing a Final Fantasy?)

I could go on infinitely with this list... You can't make a game deeper with this type of heterogeneous playerbase. At all. Too much interests converging: from long term FF players like me to veteran MMO players that want to be challenged by savage content. It's hard to have a middle ground that can please both sides and the average player.

Wow does it fine and I don't know why SE can't find the same balances wow has. I would love to play wow, but they treat their players like garbage with their cash shop.

SE needs to figure out what wow did in pleasing so many players and try to replicate some of those aspects in this game.

[Magis]

Like most of the posts, my feelings about the game are exactly like other posters and the OP. All rewards seem worthless or are given out for nothing, and the predictability and repetitiveness crushes any motivation to play the game. On top of that, the game is the most bare-bones bland MMO you could think of. You know what makes me real sad? The fact that it didn't start like this. The fact there WERE some innovative ideas in 1.0, but it was bogged down by it's launch as a buggy client released way too early before it was ready. Things like the elemental wheel, monster weak points that broke off when you use specially abilities on em, and other interesting mechanics were scrapped because some brain dead player wouldn't be able to use basic problem solving to perform, or because SE couldn't be hassled to balance it. It's funny when they say "we didn't do X because of balance". A game designer should balance the mechanic not avoid it because they have to balance it lol! Imagine if Valve remove all heroes in Dota 2 except a ganker, support, and carry (the MOBA trinity, like how SE does it with the MMO trinity) because they couldn't be hassled to balance the 100+ heroes (WHICH THEY DO ANYWAY!). The game would be simple and easy sure, but would also be utterly garbage.

And what is the biggest issue for SE's "target audience"? The fact that the new dance is slightly different for females or that SE isn't milking their money off of the cashshop for pointless item X. Why isn't this game F2P again?

But hey, this game is being relaunched from 1.0, they will change stuff in the next expansion, this expansion is only six months old, the dev team is small, ps3 limitations, casual vs hardcore rabble, blah blah blah ,[insert what ever excuse you like]... This game is careening down the pipes and anyone trying to defend the current end game at this point is just some white knight with their helm on backwards, because they are having a very hard time seeing the truth, this game is an inch deep and miles wide and nobody seems to like it.

Hah, I remember when the go to reason to the game's content being repetitive was "they had to rush and rebuild from 1.0". Then it turned into "wait till the expansion". Now it's either "it's 3.0/3.1, ARR was just as bad in 2.0/2.1" as if that is even an argument, and "this is XIV's first expansion". The goal posts have been moved so many times they are now on the moon.

Edit: You know what? For all the sniffing up his own ass and grindfests Tanaka did, he did one thing right: innovation. All those interesting mechanics both FFXI and FFXIV 1.0 had were under him. A lot of stuff that was attributed to Yoshi in 1.0 were planned things not released yet due to the game being unfinished. Heck, putting in Crystal Tower might have been Tanaka's invention as well... why? HE PRODUCED FINAL FANTASY III. Course that is just my guessing and could be a coincidence.

[technole]

So, thanks for assuming that im ego driven and that I only care about my precious entitlement, when actually I care about the health of this game and the balance of gear progression and how the game handles difficulty/reward given, because how that is handled seeps into every part of the game, especially player mentality.

I don't mind catch-up patches even as a normal raider. ilevel advantage in the game is limited in months during a raid cycle, we basically had almost five months of exclusive i210 gear.

Also have to remember even clearing A2S/A3S weekly there was one gobcoat/gobtwine to distribute among the raid weekly, and a month of clear pages to even get one personally. Depending on how early you clear, will depend on how geared out the raid could be a month or two later. With the A3S "gate" for a large majority of raiders, that would mean mainly only head, body, and leg upgrades for the most part being outstanding to fill out their gear and that's it. Thordan weapons added to the pie as well to help progression. Ways to help raids "keep trucking", which have proven successful for many. If that is what helps the clear rates without a direct "nerf" then so be it.

So a catch-up benefits raiders to easily fill whatever gaps were left, or even now gear up alternate jobs. Outside of raiders, they can start to upgrade their entire main which if they never raided which would take much longer. So there is still progression for both sides.