Expert roulette --> Thordan Extreme = Balanced difficulty curve? Really?

[Februs]

1. Absolutely no tools whatsoever ingame to teach people how to play not optimally but adequately in any respect whatsoever to prepare them for fights like the extreme primals.
2. Thordan ex should have been behind a gate. Pure and simple. Too much bad play to go around. Thinking people have enough skill going from the roulette grind to thordan ex is beyond stupid, SE. Why no little league?

I understand where you're coming from, but this isn't exactly fair. There is a "little league." It was all of the content leading up the HW expansion.

It's not like Thordan Ex was the first Extreme Primal. Garuda, Ifrit, Titan, Levi, Ramuh, Shiva, Odin, King Mog, Bismark, and Ravana all lead up to this fight, and that's not even counting the Coils of Bahamut which have FAR more difficult mechanics than anything HW has to offer. It's true that Theordan doesn't require you to clear all of them to get in, but the fights are there to teach people how to go about doing "extreme" level content (especially the original 3, which are very adequately scaled in terms of difficulty and what they require, and subsequently teach, the players who finished them). That content was once the benchmark that taught a lot of us how to even play our jobs. Not to mention the fact that all of the new fights are just recycling old content.

Dragon's Gaze is basically Petrification from T7, only with a different effect. It has now been recycled in Therdan Ex, The Aetherochemical Research Facility, and Saint Mocianne's Arboretum, but it was originally found in T7. Players who ran that don't even hesitate to turn their backs on the boss when they get the prompt, because they have had plenty of experience with it. Lightning storm was taken straight out of Ramuh Ex, and then there's Dragons Rage which is a stand in for any stack mechanic that is found in a huge number of fights. The most reminiscent is T9's Iron Chariot/Thermionic Beam combo, because it follows almost the exact same dodge pattern (spread/avoid AoE > Stack in mid to split dmg > stay away from MT). Anyone who did T9 would find this very familiar, and that's just naming a few. It's gotten to the point now where almost every single mechanic in the game can be easily identified just by looking at it if you have actually played the content leading up to it, which SE has made even easier by allowing us to unsync old fights. They might change up the visual ques a little here and there, but it only takes one time for you to recognize it.

TL;DR: The point is, SE has given us the tools to teach ourselves how to adequately, or even optimally, play the Extreme content of the game. It is not their fault if players refuse to actually use those tools to their advantage.

The real issue is people que-ing in PF without this experience and still expecting to get through it, or even get carried by the rest of the group. In that regard, PF has always been a hostile environment in which you have to weed out the chaff to get clear. It has only gotten worse since HW's release, because new players skipped a ton of content and still think they're good enough to stand toe to toe with veterans (Bismark EX and Ravana Ex were utter hell to find an adequate PF for back when ilvl 175-180 was the average), but there's really nothing SE can do to change that. Thordan is already a PF only fight. It's up to the party leader to cut the dead weight when they see it.

[Misutoraru]

That is so much true.
I mean, come on, Bismarck is fucking 6 month old and DPS is still not be able to kill the Carapace in it's first phase.

FF XIV Random Community is sooo toxic, I can't belive it.

1 wipe half the party quit
Wipe not becoz ppl don't know the mechanic, but becoz random ppl take time to cooperate
I never expected ppl do perfectly in DF, it take times for a DF party to get used to each other, but most of the time ppl just quit after 1wipe

Mostly we clear the fight at the end, even we got 1-2 wipe to begin with

Tbh doing with pub require patience, and that's what NA and EU community lacking

[enthauptet]

ITL;DR: The point is, SE has given us the tools to teach ourselves how to adequately, or even optimally, play the Extreme content of the game. It is not their fault if players refuse to actually use those tools to their advantage.

The real issue is people que-ing in PF without this experience and still expecting to get through it, or even get carried by the rest of the group. In that regard, PF has always been a hostile environment in which you have to weed out the chaff to get clear. It has only gotten worse since HW's release, because new players skipped a ton of content (Bismark EX and Ravana Ex ...),

It's pretty difficult to get parties together to run older content such as coil, also people that were/are good at it don't want to run it because they did it so much in the past - so it is hard to learn. Can't blame anybody for that. Also I agree, PF for bis, etc. is impossible. I started after HW had been out for 2 months already and nobody wanted to run bis ex with me so I could never get a clear as PF was always a disaster then disband. Anyway regarding Thordan, it's pretty fun. I wish I could get a group together for it again to run again as last time we had some people bail and all the groups in PF sound like a bunch of jerks with crazy requirements so I never want to join them.

[Februs]

It's pretty difficult to get parties together to run older content such as coil, also people that were/are good at it don't want to run it because they did it so much in the past

You're definitely right that old content is hard to get into these days, but it's also not impossible and definitely not dead. I agree with you that it's not as easy to get into these days, but I wouldn't say it's harder to learn. This is a community driven game. There's nothing to stop new players from banding together to run content, or even asking their FC to help them out. Not to mention that there are countless guides and such online to look up. All of the hard work of trail blazing has already done for them. If they would just slow down and play it, rather than trying to get to HW with lighting speed, it wouldn't be a problem.

Further, I see groups for old Ex runs and Coil runs in the PF all the time, usually unsyc'd. It's not the best way to learn, but it's better than nothing. Not to mention the fact that a lot of the PF locked fights are no longer restricted. The Coils have very slow ques, that's for sure, but Trials? Not at all. People still, to this day, insta-que for Titan Ex and Odin on my server. Odin, in particular has shown me how far of a difference in skill there is between new and older players. When Odin first came out, the majority of the players were pissed that he was so easy. Clears were common on day 1. Nowadays, go into that fight and it's filled with generation HW players who can't get a grasp on the simplest of Dps checks and mechanics. It's alarming. When you see that kind of party, you understand why HW Trials get such horrendous party applicants.

Side note: Your experience with Bismark Ex is a good example of why "gateway" fights are not always a good thing. I got to Bismark Ex pretty quickly (weeks, not months) after HW came out. Average item level was 175 at the time, and it was a nightmare trying to find a group capable of pushing the Dps check at that level. I did, in fact, find a group who could do it. It consisted entirely of veterans (generation HW players were far too weak in their jobs to know how to max their Dps) and we finally made it through after weeks of trying... and not one of us ever went back. What for? The fight is actually pretty boring, mechanics wise. The Tanks really have the only job in that fight, and the whole thing is just one, big, obstinate Dps check. By comparison, Ravana was far more fun and gave out WAY better rewards. So anyone who was late to the Bismark Ex clear party got stuck with a bunch of players who were new or players who never wanted to run it again because it was more pain than it was worth.

[Awful]

Thordan EX is a remix of raid and trial content we have already experienced.

The difficulty is tuned precisely where it ought to be. It's just a shame there isn't more like it.

I agree with this 110% there SHOULD be more trials that have this perfect balance of difficulty but as stated Yoshi P wants the next trial to be easier which to me is a real shame as it doesn't teach any of the new HW players who don't know their rotation, CDs, When/When not to heal. I'm still doing Thordan to this day with my FC and buddies because it's that great (and I want weapons).

If the next trial is really easy, like faceroll easy then doing the next floors of Alex Savage or doing anything DF related will be more of a mess than it already is.

[Callback]

It's Expert > Alexander NM > Ravana EX > Thordan EX.

But I do agree with you.

I had to do Alex NM to get enough iLv to unlock the expert roulette. Also Void Ark is a big step between Expert and iLv190.

The progression is 60 roulette > Alex NM > Expert > Void Ark > Everything else

Also Thordan EX is technically behind a wall of Ultima EX, tho you can cheese that undersized. I'd think if people did Ultima legit it should be gate enough that they at least have a clue what they're doing.

On the other hand experience with randoms varies a ton. I've been in groups where people ragequit immediately, and other groups where even tho the same tank kept falling off Levi EX 5 times in a row, everyone stuck with him until he got it right. Some people can't be helped, like the SMN who calls pomburner duty in chat then never interrupts a single flare, but others generally can be led to fix mistakes. Other people won't be as good as you. If you can't accept that and help them, I'm sure plenty of FC and linkshells are out there that could get you the failproof runs you want.

[Kaenbyou]

I think what killed the difficulty of the game the most is the unsync option, now a lot of people rushed older content in unsynch, face roll it and believe they are good without even learning the fight.
Just look at an unsynch shiva for exemple, no one does any mechanic (except for adds of course), it's just stand there and burn.
So new players join those end lvl content with their final coil downed in unsynch, Ex primal downed in unsynch and they're faced with the harsh reality, that this fight isn't unsynch and that you'll have to pull your weight through it.
Another culprit is the Alex NM, it's just so easy that it's pointless. I guess that locking thordan EX behind A1S down for exemple would be good enough.

[raela]

there should be a minigame where I have to dodge divebombs that would actually help
I hate those so much in every fight they come up they kill me I just can't manage to survive them except I'm lucky

Is there actually much to dodge on the Thordan divebombs? I just run to my spot then jump away when I get smacked.. no one has complained to me yet. D:

[technole]

I think what killed the difficulty of the game the most is the unsync option, now a lot of people rushed older content in unsynch, face roll it and believe they are good without even learning the fight.

Yeah I think the unsync option was a bit a premature, basically they killed the difficulty of all ARR content in one night with that option. You get those whom face-rolled to their first Turn 13 clear as unsync and think they are high and mighty at the game. But eventually get a wake up call in current content. We've all seen it.

The only saving grace with Thordan is the i190 minimum. I was hearing people whine about that "My law gear should be good enough". It's just insane people think they can just walk in everything in end-game content and clear something with little effort. Thordan takes time to learn, like real mechanics. Ones that can one-shot everyone if just one person fails.

[Kaurie]

also I'd argue that it should be Expert > Alexander Gordeas NM > Bismarck > Ravana > Void Arc > Alexander Gordeas: Floors 1 and 2 (Savage) [though the trial should be unlocked just before then] > THEN Thordan's reign > Alexander Gordeas: Floors 3 and 4 (Savage)

I would move Void Ark between Bismarck and Ravana - Unlike in Void Ark, you actually need to know mechanics to succeed in Ravana.

The jump between Ravana and A1S is also a bit too big imo