Absolute frustration at not being able to see my own DPS (ps4)

[Critical-Limit]

Might be worth noting (I don't know if you actually go to the DPS forums to find Optimal rotations)

I read dPS forum stuff all the time. It's usually "theory" on potency like you said but then people run it through the parse to "test it" its one of the things they did to find out if clipping certain dots was worth it.

Plenty of times people were wrong on theory proven through parse. Fracture being a par of monk rotation back in the day people believed in theory fracture was DPS loss. Turns out no there is a small window of time where it's dPS gain.

[UBERHAXED]

I read dPS forum stuff all the time. It's usually "theory" on potency like you said but then people run it through the parse to "test it" its one of the things they did to find out if clipping certain dots was worth it.

Plenty of times people were wrong on theory proven through parse. Fracture being a par of monk rotation back in the day people believed in theory fracture was DPS loss. Turns out no there is a small window of time where it's dPS gain.

Spreading misinformation to this degree should be a crime against the human race and you should go to jail. You literally just said that try and error and measuring can possibly be better than theory. There's no such thing as "theory proven wrong by parse". That means there is either a bug in the parser (likely) or the person doing the theory had some fundamental flaw (which does not fault anyone else doing theory). Please in detail with proof give an instance where a perfect rotation (which are all published by dates here) was not a perfect rotation (contradiction?) This a tautology; the rotation cannot be improved by definition. Also theory is based on relative value (that is potency). Unless the potencies displayed in the game are incorrect, then there is no better value to compare other than a potency per second rotation. There have been cases where there was actually a bug in the game regarding moves (in 2.0 for example, flaming arrow always crit, effectively giving it 350*1.5 potency instead of 350*(1.5* crit chance) but this translates ultimately to a bug in the parser, since it bases values like DoTs from the information written the game. So even in this case, the parser will just give you in accurate numbers. I'll give you a metaphor:

You just told me that I should build a prototype space ship and keep reinventing the wheel, making random "design" decision instead of spending the overhead designing it properly using physics. If you some how think this a valid argument, then I'd advise you to keep it to yourself so you don't confirm to everyone your degree of stupidity.

No, what's ironic is that you don't realize the two are actually the same thing.

You cannot have one without the other, how can one improve if they don't know where improvement starts?

Self improvement and party evaluation are not mutually exclusive concepts, they go hand in hand.

Finding the weakest link in the party also means that player now has a point of reference to start improving, any player can sit there and spike high numbers on a stationary dummy parse because it doesn't move or hit back, the real test is going into live content where it matters and seeing if your skills and gear hold up while you deal with fight mechanics.

Maybe that player learns they need to hold a GCD between a certain move? Maybe that DRG knows they are going to lose BoTD due to a phase change so they need to adjust before hand? Maybe the BLM has to change the timing of when they toss down Ley Lines in order to get the most out of it's duration? Maybe your accuracy was too low for the encounter or maybe you're overshooting by 100 points and can swap out a piece of gear?

These are things you learn in live content and are exactly how you improve your play.

The thing is this happens at the same time you are also trying to clear content and this is where proper evaluation and data helps and if a single player isn't up to the level of the content it doesn't mean that the 7 others in the party aren't either, they should have every right to know this and adjust accordingly if they need to in order to continue making attempts on the fight.

The key is not taking critique as a negative.

It's entirely possible to be the weakest link one run, get some practice in and turn around to top the charts the next time around, but if you had no idea that you were under-performing before then how would you have any idea whether or not you needed to improve?

Please, step by step, tell me how a parser giving me a 1245 will tell me to use BoTD before a phase change. In detail.

I think I still missed the part where the parser actually improves your dps. It's a measurement tool which only tell you how much damage you did at the end/time. Knowing this arbitrary scalar value will not tell you to put raging strikes before the iron jaws reapplication, common sense does (which incidentally does not require a parser). It's only literal use is to determine if a piece of gear you swapped was beneficial. Parsers cannot improve your rotation, just as your boss telling you that you are productive only 46% of the time cannot improve your productivity. Every single person (disclaimer: assuming people use a brain) knows when they perform poorly for a fight. Every time you deviate from the perfect dummy rotation, you have a dps loss. A parser does not tell you what the perfect rotation is, nor does it give you messages about what you did that was not part of the perfect rotation. Using a parser will not improve your rotation. You should have known your perfect rotation from the start! Please do not argue in favor of using a parser if you do not understand it's usage and what the number means.

I'm pro-parser btw; I know exactly how to use the values that are issued.

[melisande]

Spreading misinformation to this degree should be a crime against the human race and you should go to jail. You literally just said that try and error and measuring can possibly be better than theory. There's no such thing as "theory proven wrong by parse". That means there is either a bug in the parser (likely) or the person doing the theory had some fundamental flaw (which does not fault anyone else doing theory). Please in detail with proof give an instance where a perfect rotation (which are all published by dates here) was not a perfect rotation (contradiction?) This a tautology; the rotation cannot be improved by definition. Also theory is based on relative value (that is potency). Unless the potencies displayed in the game are incorrect, then there is no better value to compare other than a potency per second rotation. There have been cases where there was actually a bug in the game regarding moves (in 2.0 for example, flaming arrow always crit, effectively giving it 350*1.5 potency instead of 350*(1.5* crit chance) but this translates ultimately to a bug in the parser, since it bases values like DoTs from the information written the game. So even in this case, the parser will just give you in accurate numbers. I'll give you a metaphor:

You just told me that I should build a prototype space ship and keep reinventing the wheel, making random "design" decision instead of spending the overhead designing it properly using physics. If you some how think this a valid argument, then I'd advise you to keep it to yourself so you don't confirm to everyone your degree of stupidity.




Please, step by step, tell me how a parser giving me a 1245 will tell me to use BoTD before a phase change. In detail.

I think I still missed the part where the parser actually improves your dps. It's a measurement tool which only tell you how much damage you did at the end/time. Knowing this arbitrary scalar value will not tell you to put raging strikes before the iron jaws reapplication, common sense does (which incidentally does not require a parser). It's only literal use is to determine if a piece of gear you swapped was beneficial. Parsers cannot improve your rotation, just as your boss telling you that you are productive only 46% of the time cannot improve your productivity. Every single person (disclaimer: assuming people use a brain) knows when they perform poorly for a fight. Every time you deviate from the perfect dummy rotation, you have a dps loss. A parser does not tell you what the perfect rotation is, nor does it give you messages about what you did that was not part of the perfect rotation. Using a parser will not improve your rotation. You should have known your perfect rotation from the start! Please do not argue in favor of using a parser if you do not understand it's usage and what the number means.

I'm pro-parser btw; I know exactly how to use the values that are issued.

Nailed it! Exacctly!!!! Thank you seriously.

[Kaurie]

Spreading misinformation to this degree should be a crime against the human race and you should go to jail. You literally just said that try and error and measuring can possibly be better than theory.

Go to jail? Seriously? Let's remain civil and mature in this discussion. Trial and error is a major part of proving theories

There's no such thing as "theory proven wrong by parse".

Yes there is

the person doing the theory had some fundamental flaw

That is what proving a theory wrong is. It is finding a flaw in the theory. Theories are proven wrong via running several consistent experiments and monitoring the data. That is what a parser helps with.

Please in detail with proof give an instance where a [dummy] perfect rotation (which are all published by dates here) was not a perfect rotation [in every situation] (contradiction?)

This barely makes any sense as a question, but essentially a perfect rotation may not transfer well in to every fight (due to mechanics, jumps, adds etc). In order to illustrate my answer, I added square brackets into your quote.

Also theory is based on relative value (that is potency). Unless the potencies displayed in the game are incorrect, then there is no better value to compare other than a potency per second rotation. There have been cases where there was actually a bug in the game regarding moves (in 2.0 for example, flaming arrow always crit, effectively giving it 350*1.5 potency instead of 350*(1.5* crit chance) but this translates ultimately to a bug in the parser, since it bases values like DoTs from the information written the game. So even in this case, the parser will just give you in accurate numbers.

Correct, that is how one comes up with their theory, by testing math. That said, due to the complexities of all the various skills, buffs that can be applied via your team and yourself, potions as well as debuffs and mechanics from given fights, it's great to test your said theory with a tool that will tell you if you're doing what you expect.

Please, step by step, tell me how a parser giving me a 1245 will tell me to use BoTD before a phase change. In detail.

Well, you go in to the dungeon and use BoTD at one point several times and see your numbers. Then you go in and try using it at another point and see how your numbers change. This will help you understand when is best to use it.

For example, maybe I want to use Raging Strikes after I dot up, use paintflare/fester/fester/dreadwyrm, so I can have both raging, deathflare and x-drac pot up for another fester + ruin II + tridisaster and deathflare. However, in X fight, when I do that, I end up having 6 seconds of raging strikes ticking away while Y boss is jumping. Common sense would tell me that is a waste, but the parser can help me see exactly by how much of a waste. Perhaps it wasn't a waste at all if I deathflare before the jump, as all I lose is a few ticks on the dot. Perhaps, I need to hold all of those skills til after the jump and should just use Ruin I. Alright, so there are various situations, and I can probably do the math for every single encounter I run in to, but do we play this game to sit around with a calculator? Probably not, what is great is having a tool that shows us how are actions are changing with various attempts and ideas.

I think I still missed the part where the parser actually improves your dps.

This depends how you want to read in to what people are saying. No one has claimed that a parser actually increases DPS on it's own. Everyone is saying it's a tool that lets you see if you are performing poorly, and will give you feedback with how changes in your playstyle affect this.

Parsers cannot improve your rotation

False, they can help you determine how your rotation is working and provide you the information which helps with adjusting. I am not saying a parser will improve your rotation on its own, but it will help towards that goal. Further, you can use the tool to see how you compare to other people of your same job and gear level, and ask for pointers when necessary.

just as your boss telling you that you are productive only 46% of the time cannot improve your productivity.

Having a parser that gave you DPS once wouldn't help you improve your performance either. Parsers give real time data on how well you are doing.

Every single person (disclaimer: assuming people use a brain) knows when they perform poorly for a fight.

That is not true and is offensive to anyone who doesn't. I have played with plenty of people who perform very poorly, but have no idea that they did. These people were not stupid, they just didn't think about everything the same way you or I did.

Every time you deviate from the perfect dummy rotation, you have a dps loss.

I mostly agree with this statement, even though it is factually incorrect. AoE can increase your DPS well above a dummy parse. The question is, is that AoE actually helpful or not?

[UBERHAXED]

Go to jail? Seriously? Let's remain civil and mature in this discussion. Trial and error is a major part of proving theories

Yes, spreading misinformation is a crime, similar to dividing by zero.

Yes there is

Circular logic? Parsers are verified by using mathematical basis in game. That's how we find bugs.

That is what proving a theory wrong is. It is finding a flaw in the theory. Theories are proven wrong via running several consistent experiments and monitoring the data. That is what a parser helps with.

Since you intentionally using words out of context... We don't make mathematical axioms, postulates, and corollaries about stuff in game. The word "theory" means mathematically. If you find a flaw with someone doing algebra or arithmetic, that means that person doesn't know algebra or arithmetic, not that all of algebra or arithmetic is wrong (which incidentally cannot be possible since we would need to use algebra to prove there something is wrong with algebra). But I mean I thought I didn't have to spell out in parenthesis the contextual meaning of words with multiple English meanings.

This barely makes any sense as a question, but essentially a perfect rotation may not transfer well in to every fight (due to mechanics, jumps, adds etc). In order to illustrate my answer, I added square brackets into your quote.

You cannot do higher damage than this rotation, there fore you have a damage ceiling, no matter how many time you "test" with your parser in any fight. That's what the statement means. It might help you comprehend if you don't quote out of ocntext.

Correct, that is how one comes up with their theory, by testing math. That said, due to the complexities of all the various skills, buffs that can be applied via your team and yourself, potions as well as debuffs and mechanics from given fights, it's great to test your said theory with a tool that will tell you if you're doing what you expect.

No it's not. You have no idea even what you are talking about. Aside from you using the wrong meaning of the word theory, damage is random. Potencies are not. This is the only thing you can compare. Unfortunately, a parser cannot give you a "potency/second" figure that is accurate (how did the parser know that you got the positional potency or combo potency). We don't build rotations around parsers. We verify there are no bugs in the parser by doing the rotation and comparing against the mathematically estimates given by the potency and damage formula. The amount of misinformation is astonishing.

Well, you go in to the dungeon and use BoTD at one point several times and see your numbers. Then you go in and try using it at another point and see how your numbers change. This will help you understand when is best to use it.

If we are doing this then counting the permutations of all possible moves across the duration of the fight (which varies due to dps variance) you will die of age before your trial an error will tell you what's the minimum with a boss with 10000 HP. Or... you can use common sense and use attacks before buffs fall off. Also... lol go into a dungeon... Are we even talking about the same thing here? I can assure you (by reading the skill) that BoTD had no hidden effects that affect your dps. That aside (a serious comment) BoTD should be up 100% of the time. That was intentionally facetious. And whatever minute change you see in the parser is problem due to the fact that damage is RANDOM, and not that you found some hidden effect of a skill.

For example, maybe I want to use Raging Strikes after I dot up, use paintflare/fester/fester/dreadwyrm, so I can have both raging, deathflare and x-drac pot up for another fester + ruin II + tridisaster and deathflare. However, in X fight, when I do that, I end up having 6 seconds of raging strikes ticking away while Y boss is jumping. Common sense would tell me that is a waste, but the parser can help me see exactly by how much of a waste. Perhaps it wasn't a waste at all if I deathflare before the jump, as all I lose is a few ticks on the dot. Perhaps, I need to hold all of those skills til after the jump and should just use Ruin I. Alright, so there are various situations, and I can probably do the math for every single encounter I run in to, but do we play this game to sit around with a calculator? Probably not, what is great is having a tool that shows us how are actions are changing with various attempts and ideas.

Not sure if serious. I gave this example intentionally. Parsers cannot determine this seeing as we can't read DoT damage... All you will have a incorrect information compared against other incorrect information based on a number with random variance. In every case without fail, just doing the potency calculation (which, not surprisingly already resolved for you in the optimal rotations) will tell you what will give the highest DPS. Also lol calculator. Do you get a calculator to verify that 9+12 is 21? Because I'm pretty sure it works the other way around. Joking aside, calculators logic are build using arithmetic. We don't build arithmetic around calculators.

This depends how you want to read in to what people are saying. No one has claimed that a parser actually increases DPS on it's own. Everyone is saying it's a tool that lets you see if you are performing poorly, and will give you feedback with how changes in your playstyle affect this.

A person knows without a parser how poorly they performed for a fight. You don't need a parser to realize "I messed up my rotation". So you did AS1 and ended with 1000 dps. Is that good or bad? What does the number even mean? You know before the fight ended how well you did.

False, they can help you determine how your rotation is working and provide you the information which helps with adjusting. I am not saying a parser will improve your rotation on its own, but it will help towards that goal. Further, you can use the tool to see how you compare to other people of your same job and gear level, and ask for pointers when necessary.

What does "is working" even mean? If you're doing the same moves as someone else and get different results that means either 1. Their gear (such as weapon damage) have larger multipliers. Or 2. Random factor, such as critical hits (uncontrollable) or regular damage variance (uncontrollable). If you aren't doing the same moves, then you should be fixing that before you start looking at damage numbers. If you're not using the optimal rotation (found by doing math, not parsing btw) then you cannot perform better than someone who does (not the same as having higher dps, seeing as damage is random). If you really wanted help to improve your rotation, then you would have already either did your searches and found it online or you would look at the potencies yourself. You're digging you're digging a hole for yourself. Are you saying that there cannot possible as of this current moment be any good (performs at the virtuoso level) players on PS3 or PS4? Because they exist and they got good my using some sense.

Having a parser that gave you DPS once wouldn't help you improve your performance either. Parsers give real time data on how well you are doing.

Knowing your SAT score will not help you the next time you take the SAT. You know during the test how well or poorly you did. You also seem to be misinterpreting what the use of a parser is. Parsers are useful for retrospective analysis. In real time you need to look and the screen and play the game. If you want real time reinforcement, then look at the flying text.

That is not true and is offensive to anyone who doesn't. I have played with plenty of people who perform very poorly, but have no idea that they did. These people were not stupid, they just didn't think about everything the same way you or I did.

Disclaimer message still hold true. Moving on...

I mostly agree with this statement, even though it is factually incorrect. AoE can increase your DPS well above a dummy parse. The question is, is that AoE actually helpful or not?

[/QUOTE]
We are talking about the same thing right? In RAIDS (i.e. the only place where dps even remotely matters) you should be measuring damage. All damage counts. Also you can stack dummies next to each other to simulate damage. The only situations were this does not translate cleanly is when we have bosses with different defense values than dummies. Which incidentally makes number comparison different. But you know what doesn't change? Potencies. Also you don't need a parser to realize that you can just painflare to do more damage than fester when you hit both the boss and alarums. You do need to able to count on your fingers though. (1x300 < 2x200).

[KaitlanKela]

-snip-

What I'm getting from this is that you don't think parsers are necessary? I'm not going to argue with you about that. I don't use one, as I am still working on HW content and I'm not even level 60 so I couldn't work on an 'optimal' rotation with theory or parser right now because I don't have all my skills and in two levels it would be obsolete.

However, if you don't think it's necessary and you prefer to use potency and theory, please do. Don't use it. Never look at it. There is nothing to say that by implementing a parser it is now absolutely required in order to play the game or raid. But the argument about depriving people who would use it of it because you don't think it's necessary is kinda lame. You're essentially telling people that everyone should play your way.

Please correct me if you're meaning something different.

[Kaurie]

Snip

I disagree with almost everything you said, and am fairly unappreciative of the offensive tone you take while debating. So, I am not going to bother picking apart your faulty argument.

One thing to note, the part where you mention that parsers cannot accurately account for DOTs and the other part which talks about if parsers are inaccurately adding up your damage is the entire reason why I personally want an official parser from Square Enix (one which will use their internal data to be more accurate).

On your last note, not all damage counts. For example, on Faust, my numbers are significantly higher than anyone elses (as a SMN) due to added AoE damage from shadowflare/deathflare etc, but the damage on the adds doesn't matter. It's the damage on Faust that matters. When looking at that, I often fall to 2nd of the 4 DPS.

[UBERHAXED]

I disagree with almost everything you said, and am fairly unappreciative of the offensive tone you take while debating. So, I am not going to bother picking apart your faulty argument.

One thing to note, the part where you mention that parsers cannot accurately account for DOTs and the other part which talks about if parsers are inaccurately adding up your damage is the entire reason why I personally want an official parser from Square Enix (one which will use their internal data to be more accurate).

On your last note, not all damage counts. For example, on Faust, my numbers are significantly higher than anyone elses (as a SMN) due to added AoE damage from shadowflare/deathflare etc, but the damage on the adds doesn't matter. It's the damage on Faust that matters. When looking at that, I often fall to 2nd of the 4 DPS.

What you mean to say is that you have no rebuttal because your argument is flawed. Also Faust is not a raid boss so no one cares how much damage you do there. Beating Faust doesn't get you any achievements, loot, title or anything. In the real environment, you have to look at the group. Also, read last line of the quote, I'm pro-parser. But people don't understand what the usage of it is and it doesn't help that some of them are also pro-parse (such as yourself). If you really wanted to improve your DPS, you would first get the basics down (i.e. optimal rotation) then look at gear. When you can do the mechanics of a raid correctly, then you try to make the fight as close to whacking a dummy (or "Faust") as possible. You already know what the maximum and what direction to go. If you need reinforcement, then look at the screen for the flying text.

[Avidria]

Spreading misinformation to this degree should be a crime against the human race and you should go to jail. You literally just said that try and error and measuring can possibly be better than theory.

Did you really just equate someone's comment on a video game forum to crimes against humanity?

Seriously?

Theories are not facts. They are a system of ideas and assumptions about something - in this case, educated assumptions about the "ideal" rotation based on the potency of abilities. They are not absolute, be-all-end-all unalterable truths. Claiming that a theory can be proven inaccurate through testing is hardly an absurd assertion to make.

[Ryel]

Please, step by step, tell me how a parser giving me a 1245 will tell me to use BoTD before a phase change. In detail.

I think I still missed the part where the parser actually improves your dps. It's a measurement tool which only tell you how much damage you did at the end/time. Knowing this arbitrary scalar value will not tell you to put raging strikes before the iron jaws reapplication, common sense does (which incidentally does not require a parser). It's only literal use is to determine if a piece of gear you swapped was beneficial. Parsers cannot improve your rotation, just as your boss telling you that you are productive only 46% of the time cannot improve your productivity. Every single person (disclaimer: assuming people use a brain) knows when they perform poorly for a fight. Every time you deviate from the perfect dummy rotation, you have a dps loss. A parser does not tell you what the perfect rotation is, nor does it give you messages about what you did that was not part of the perfect rotation. Using a parser will not improve your rotation. You should have known your perfect rotation from the start! Please do not argue in favor of using a parser if you do not understand it's usage and what the number means.

I'm pro-parser btw; I know exactly how to use the values that are issued.

Others have given comparable examples of how this works but since you asked me I'll answer as well.

A parser giving you a 1245 will not tell you to when use BoTD by itself, in fact nobody would look at it that way anyway as that's a prime example of not correctly reading the information.

There's a large difference between doing the calculations when it comes to the potency of skills etc to create the perfect rotation before hand, practicing it ad nauseam on a striking dummy and then actually performing the rotation successfully in live content with the variables that are boss moves and other party members.

When players use the term "improving their rotation" they don't mean that the parser is suddenly going to start spitting out increased damage and adding chunks of DPS, they also don't mean it's going to provide a brand new step by step rotation that couldn't have been done on paper prior to the fight.

What they do mean however is that a person parsing their performance in live content can look at other examples to get an idea of how well they should be performing in a fight and contrary to what you may believe there are many players out there that simply do not know this.

Your example with the two Dragoons doesn't really make any sense in the context of this conversation.

Saying "well this Dragoon did 1300 DPS why didn't you!!!!??" is not the same as someone asking "Can someone tell me what the average DPS of a DRG in this fight is around my ilvl and stats? I'd like to know how much i should be doing." this is where someone can respond with "Well the average burst assuming you're doing your rotation right is usually around 1300-1400 DPS in the first phase give or take with a sustained afterwards of around 1000-1200-ish for the rest of the fight but various factors can change that obviously" this gives that Dragoon something to shoot for when evaluating their own performance.

If That DRG looks at the parser and sees they're only doing 800 burst at the start and start dropping down to 600 sustained they obviously know they are doing something incorrectly but they may have to look at and evaluate their performance to see where they went wrong. Maybe they weren't mechanically fast enough? Maybe they need to adjust their positioning and the way they avoid boss telegraphs in order to maximize their DPS up-time which should be common sense but you'd be surprised how many players don't realize how much stepping away from the boss for an extra GCD or not dodging properly can impact their DPS, they may think it's just 20 points here and there when in reality you could end up dropping a few hundred points instead, which doesn't sound like much until it keeps happening over time and you wipe at 1%, a parser will show you this when you compare the data from multiple attempts.

As for things like BoTD, GL, etc that yes should have 100% up-time, historically there have been many cases of a party doing either too much or two little DPS causing awkward phase transitions where it falls off. It's not about when you activate it but entirely about where you might have to alter your rotation to extend it, the number of times I've heard "Damn i lost GL, Enochian, BoTD, etc" because of an awkward phase are too numerous to count over two years of content ranging from Ex primals that are notorious for lots of jumps when pushed (see: Leviathan, Ifrit, Titan, Garuda) or bosses that you need to come near full stop on DPS so that you don't wipe the party (Melusine, Nael, Bahamut) a parser doesn't change the math in any way, but it does show you your performance counting the variable that is live play.

You just told me that I should build a prototype space ship and keep reinventing the wheel, making random "design" decision instead of spending the overhead designing it properly using physics. If you some how think this a valid argument, then I'd advise you to keep it to yourself so you don't confirm to everyone your degree of stupidity.

Funny that you say this, because we don't rely entirely on the math when building things like spaceships we extensively test and re-test every single part down to the bolt before we conduct a launch and even then there are times when we get it wrong or something happens that we cannot foresee that wasn't taken into account. It could be as simple as human error or something entirely beyond the scope of our predictions, you can look up the space shuttle challenger and see how even though everything in the math was probably correct a simple O-ring malfunction can cause disastrous results that defied their predictions and nobody saw coming, sure we know exactly what happened now, but that's because we were able to asses and analyze the data after the fact.

Additionally while we might not reinvent the wheel, we've surely innovated it about a billion (not an actual number) times to suit our various needs, from the materials we construct it with to altering it's form, changing things from the draft board in response to live feedback is exactly how we make progress.