The Greystone Bastard (naming lore query)

[Tenkuu]

Also, let's consider that he's the man who gave Eline that big speech about how he sold his sword but he would never turn on his allies--only to turn around and do just that. And even if you still want to take him seriously, I would personally interpret his "you" as a collective--accusing the Scions in general of being pawns of the city-states. Unless I'm badly mis-remembering the quote, it was the city states he accused of of being pawns of. And if we're sticking with the chess metaphor, then my personal answer to that is that if we were once a pawn, we've long-since become the pawn who crossed the board and became a Queen. Just because we're still following doesn't mean we don't agree, on the whole, with what we're doing. Maybe I was too quick to say you're entirely wrong, because a lot of this is open to interpretation based on your character. Obviously, the actual interpersonal relations with the Scions depend on that beyond what we see in the existing cutscenes. and dialog.

I'm equally certain that those who verbally attack us mean us the Scions rather than us the individual character. I also have a feeling that any misinterpretation is due, yet again, to a bad translation. I would love for someone to pull those scenes in japanese and translate them so that we could get a clearer picture of what's actually being said. The Warrior of Light is someone whose upstanding character is admired, so I agree with you, and I would even add that because of this personality trait, we would not fight for something that we did not believe in. Proof of that is evident in the way we handle those who betray us: we don't hesitate to fight them. Btw, even outside of the cutscenes you can see who the Scions are in their ever-changing idle animations in Waking Sands and Rising Stones, and what they are outside of their quests and fights (and even in a few MSQ cutscenes) are adorable goofs who like to poke fun at one another and enjoy their off time like regular people.

Speaking as a Dark Knight main, though, I feel you're reaching to associate the sense of being used that was presented in those quests as being caused by the Scions. No, it was very clearly building on the backlash of being betrayed in Ul'dah--a sense of being betrayed by the people we helped, as presented in the Lv 45 quest with the merchant who asked you to retrieve his goods, then turned around and tried to accuse you of having ruined them. It was the sense of ingratitude for what you'd done, not the fact that you had to do it--never mind that the flavor of quest being attacked was much more in line with sidequests than the main quest. Aside from the questgiver in the Lv 40 being afraid of you for "Frey's" outburst, there was no real negative consequence of saving the people there who actually needed to be saved.

I've barely started the DRK quests, though I did see a video of the level 50 quest, but speaking quite honestly here: what on Earth could the Scions have ever done to you to make you that angry and bitter with them in the first place?

[Dualblade]

I've barely started the DRK quests, though I did see a video of the level 50 quest, but speaking quite honestly here: what on Earth could the Scions have ever done to you to make you that angry and bitter with them in the first place?

This might just be me thinking it, but your Dark self from there is basically just your darkest self. GENERALLY the WoL wouldn't think of them that way, but your Dark version mostly only thinks in negative ways about everything else that it colors all of your memories...making it seem as if you were just being used, that they (and everyone else) don't give a damn about you, so why should you care?

I've seen Persona 4 be used as a comparison, and it fits. Your Dark self is you at your worst...which btw says alot since even with the pile of bodies there when you show up right before fighting none of them are dead. Even your darkest self is good.

[Tenkuu]

This might just be me thinking it, but your Dark self from there is basically just your darkest self. GENERALLY the WoL wouldn't think of them that way, but your Dark version mostly only thinks in negative ways about everything else that it colors all of your memories...making it seem as if you were just being used, that they (and everyone else) don't give a damn about you, so why should you care?

I've seen Persona 4 be used as a comparison, and it fits. Your Dark self is you at your worst...which btw says alot since even with the pile of bodies there when you show up right before fighting none of them are dead. Even your darkest self is good.

The way I see it, even your dark self thinks of the Scions as a part of you, and of you as a part of them. The reference to being used seems to be concerning all of you, and not just you the Adventurer.

[Dualblade]

The way I see it, even your dark self thinks of the Scions as a part of you, and of you as a part of them. The reference to being used seems to be concerning all of you, and not just you the Adventurer.

While possible, being that "our" dark self doesn't call on us to find the other Scions and leave with them, but just to leave on our own, leave EVERYTHING behind, implies the Scions are put in the "using you" group as well be them. But again because your dark self is the most negative part, and thus only sees everything they asked of you in a negative light.

And of course I haven't seen the JP version so who knows, maybe even their the dark self is a bit more charitable of them.

[Cilia]

I'm equally certain that those who verbally attack us mean us the Scions rather than us the individual character. I also have a feeling that any misinterpretation is due, yet again, to a bad translation. I would love for someone to pull those scenes in japanese and translate them so that we could get a clearer picture of what's actually being said. The Warrior of Light is someone whose upstanding character is admired, so I agree with you, and I would even add that because of this personality trait, we would not fight for something that we did not believe in...

Since you're going to be pedantic like that, here is the exact quote.

*glances at the Warrior of Light* If you think you fight for justice, lad / lass, you'd best wake up. The truth is, you fight for whoever bloody well tells you to. Can you not see you're being used?! By the Scions, the city-states, even the Crystal Braves. They none of 'em care a whit what you want - only what you can do for them. And how do I know this? Because I'm the same - a pawn to be used as my masters see fit...

He goes on to whinge about Ala Mhigo, of course, but this is the important bit.

Of course, there's a big difference between working for the amoral Lolorito and working for the righteous, upstanding Scions, but he does have a point. We do good things, but only as the champion of others' causes. This is changing, as the Warrior of Light sought to finish the Knights of the Round in part to avenge Haurchefant and our collaboration with Leofard is entirely voluntary. That said, in 2.x we're just a tool to be thrown at whatever is bothering X city-state right now. We'd never fight for a cause we don't believe in, but that still doesn't change the fact we're not fighting for our own cause beyond self-preservation.

A translation of the Japanese dialogue just for comparison's sake would be nice, though.

I've barely started the DRK quests, though I did see a video of the level 50 quest, but speaking quite honestly here: what on Earth could the Scions have ever done to you to make you that angry and bitter with them in the first place?

Since we're not tagging spoilers here I guess... I dunno, maybe foisting the burden of being "Eorzea's hope" on you? Fray never says anything the Scions said or did impacted you in a meaningful way, but that's likely just because the issue doesn't come up during the storyline. Fray is a collection of all the "darkness" in your heart - all the negative thoughts and emotions you feel, but repress because you think it's wrong to feel and think that way.

Naturally, facing yourself is no easy task. The only thing that would have made it better would have been your Shadow, after manifesting, saying "I am a shadow of your true inner self..."

Lots of Persona 4 vibes after the big reveal.

[Tenkuu]

Damn, I hadn't finished replying to that post and planned on editing it later, totally forgot about it...

Since you're going to be pedantic like that, here is the exact quote.

I'm not even the one who brought up this point, but thanks! And I really think you're misunderstanding the meaning of the term pedantic here, especially since I wanted to look at the japanese version of this, and that quote is not it. Having now heard the quote in japanese, I can confirm that Ilberd says nothing about the Scions in there.

He goes on to whinge about Ala Mhigo, of course, but this is the important bit.

Actually the important bit is right there in the sentence you just posted: he is whining.

Of course, there's a big difference between working for the amoral Lolorito and working for the righteous, upstanding Scions, but he does have a point. We do good things, but only as the champion of others' causes. This is changing, as the Warrior of Light sought to finish the Knights of the Round in part to avenge Haurchefant and our collaboration with Leofard is entirely voluntary. That said, in 2.x we're just a tool to be thrown at whatever is bothering X city-state right now. We'd never fight for a cause we don't believe in, but that still doesn't change the fact we're not fighting for our own cause beyond self-preservation.

Were it only others' causes that we were championing, we wouldn't be fighting in the first place, because that is not the sort of character the Warrior of Light is. On the contrary, it is because we found those who will help us in championing a common cause that we have joined the Scions. Depending on each player's personal feelings towards those NPCs, it may be easy to miss, but the various little quests we do before joining them make it clear. The Scions do not approach just anyone, they approach those who have proven to have a righteous character and the strength to fight for their convictions.

Since we're not tagging spoilers here I guess... I dunno, maybe foisting the burden of being "Eorzea's hope" on you? Fray never says anything the Scions said or did impacted you in a meaningful way, but that's likely just because the issue doesn't come up during the storyline. Fray is a collection of all the "darkness" in your heart - all the negative thoughts and emotions you feel, but repress because you think it's wrong to feel and think that way.

Even if that was a burden we did feel, it would hardly be cause for rancor towards them. Also, I feel like you need to check this out.

Naturally, facing yourself is no easy task. The only thing that would have made it better would have been your Shadow, after manifesting, saying "I am a shadow of your true inner self..."

I don't disagree at all about us having an inner darker self, I'm just completely certain that it absolutely does *not* concern the Scions. If there is only one group we can trust to be our unflinching allies, they are it.