Originally Posted by Naria

The Scions are perfectly willing to risk their lives for the WoL and Minfilla in 2.55, but I ultimately felt like it was more because they believed that was the best way to protect Hydaelyn. Hauchefant's sacrifice was only to protect the WoL for no other reason then he did not want a world without them in it.

...

Still I feel the game is poorer without Hauchefant or a truly personal friendship for the WoL. Perhaps with his sibling declaration in 3.1 the WoL will start to have a closer friendship Artoriel. Was anyone else like. . . "er Artoriel, I really don't think your brother thought of me as a sister" in that scene? Maybe he just meant sister-in-arms?

That's ultimately what it comes down to.

Minfilia, and by extension the rest of the Scions probably, used the rationale of "You are the Warrior of Light, Eorzea's hope!" to clarify why they were willing to sacrifice themselves to keep you safe.

Haurchefant just didn't want to see you get hurt because he cared about you. That's the kind of friend someone like the Warrior of Light needs, not someone who makes you shoulder the burden of being the hope of the world. Arguably that's why Alphinaud, Estinien, and Ysayle all become friends with the Warrior of Light to varying degrees - they treat you more like a person than a tool compared to how it was with the Scions' "Go kill this primal, Warrior of Light!"

Hopefully we do get more characters like Haurchefant, who are there to support you when you really need it and don't place too much pressure on you. Or send you on missions to kill primals all the time, then call you every five minutes and tell you to come back to the Waking Sands / Rising Stones.

I wouldn't mind developing a closer friendship with Artoriel; he seems like a good enough character, though I don't want him to be Haurchefant 2.0. I'm kind of worried about Emmanellain, though. And while the Warrior of Light may not have considered Haurchefant a literal brother, it may have been the other way around. Brother / sister from another mother, y'know what I'm sayin'?

Originally Posted by Cilia

I wouldn't mind developing a closer friendship with Artoriel; he seems like a good enough character, though I don't want him to be Haurchefant 2.0. I'm kind of worried about Emmanellain, though.[/size]

To be honest i got a suspicious vibe when i watched Artoriel through the 3.1 storyline, if you go and rewatch the cutscenes his father frowns at him when he speaks right before you enter the vault and Emmanellain who is usually very carefree and fun was absolutely livid at his brother by the end of the MSQ patch. My Fiance and i sat down a whole afternoon and watched the cutscenes from Heavensward with Artoriel in them and we found his new behavior odd, it kinda feels like he's acting a little like his half brother to become more likeable to the WoL in 3.1, although as someone have already stated this might just be character development on his part. But I don't know.. he was smirking when he left the room to go after the angry Emmanellain..

But aside from that there's definetly something wrong brewing in the Fortemps household, you have to wonder why Edmont didn't even lift a brow when his oldest son offered to put down his sword in the vault while his middle child is still "warm in his coffin" as Lucia says. Rather he frowns when Artoriel speaks up as if what he said was the stupidest thing he had ever heard. Then to follow it up by gushing over Aymeric when they get out with his "I see much of Haurchefant in you" while Artoriel is right there behind him.
I don't know man, It seems fishy!

Originally Posted by Emmanellain

But aside from that there's definetly something wrong brewing in the Fortemps household, you have to wonder why Edmont didn't even lift a brow when his oldest son offered to put down his sword in the vault while his middle child is still "warm in his coffin" as Lucia says.

Somewhat tangential but do we know for certain that Haurchefant was the middle child or is that something we've all been assuming?

Originally Posted by FJerome

Somewhat tangential but do we know for certain that Haurchefant was the middle child or is that something we've all been assuming?

I think this comes from Emmanellain introducing himself as the second son--then immediately correcting it to second trueborn son, which is pretty close to a confirmation.

Originally Posted by FJerome

Somewhat tangential but do we know for certain that Haurchefant was the middle child or is that something we've all been assuming?

We know for certain.

Journal entry for the Quest Over the Wall:

Ser Artoirel de Fortemps, eldest son of Count Edmont de Fortemps, did not expect to have company on his mission to aid houses Durendaire and Dzemael─a prospect he was not particularly enthusiastic about in the first place, given the ancient rivalries between Ishgard's noble families.

Emmanellain in the quest Onwards and Upwards

Ah, but where are my manners. Emmanellain de Fortemps, second son of Count Edmont de Fortemps—trueborn, that is.

Originally Posted by FJerome

Somewhat tangential but do we know for certain that Haurchefant was the middle child or is that something we've all been assuming?

I was playing in China server, in Chinese the dialog set it very clear. Artoirel told WoL that Haurchefant is his younger brother

Originally Posted by Emmanellain

To be honest i got a suspicious vibe when i watched Artoriel through the 3.1 storyline, if you go and rewatch the cutscenes his father frowns at him when he speaks right before you enter the vault and Emmanellain who is usually very carefree and fun was absolutely livid at his brother by the end of the MSQ patch. ...I don't know man, It seems fishy!

I think people are thinking about this just a little too hard. Just a little.

If you'll remember, Artoriel was originally very headstrong and stubborn and insisted he didn't need our help. He actually admits that some part of him wanted us to fail and die on our co-op mission out in the Western Highlands because Haurchefant praised us so highly. Our success and conduct won him over during the mission, though, and he pledged not to doubt us again. He had a very professional demeanor, even if he was rather rude to us at first.

Emmanellain, on the other hand, was portrayed as a carefree fool. He is much kinder than Artoriel even in the beginning, but treats the mission like a game. After arriving at Camp Cloudtop and flirting with Lady Lainette, he's assigned surveillance - an unglamorous but necessary task - and he ends up getting captured by the Vundu. We go to rescue him, and he cowers behind us every step of the way during the escape. Once we return to the manor, he expects to be praised for his efforts and conduct, but ends up (rightfully) being scolded.

That's all we really saw of the two before 3.1.

As for Count Edmont, the Quest Log does indeed say that he regards Aymeric as a son. That said, at the present time it's rather understandable - he and Haurchefant are a lot alike in many ways. Aymeric has also been put into the position of being Ishgard's icon of hope, willingly or otherwise, and losing him would at present throw the nation into chaos. We also later learn that Edmont is going to step down as head of House Fortemps, so I'm willing to bet he was trying to impart some last wisdom to the young Lord Commander before he does so.

From all of this, what I can gather is...

Artoriel is hesitant of the change in Ishgard, but also accepting of the truth and willing to take up the burden of being Count so long as he has someone he can rely on to support him. He is afraid, but he's not going to let his fear stop him from doing what he believes is right for Ishgard. Many of the things he does here seem to be to prove to himself that, even if the title of Count is built on a lie, he has earned it. He doesn't want it to just be handed to him, and in the scenes with Count Edmont seems to be trying to gauge what exactly Edmont is trying to do.

Emmanellain, on the other hand, is probably not taking the change well. Compared to the other members of House Fortemps, he's rather cowardly - just a braggart, really. Honoroit also mentions usually having to comb the taverns to find him, so he's probably quite the drinker on top of it. I'd wager he's just trying to come to terms with everything, and isn't doing so quite as well as Artoriel. Having more responsibility put on him probably isn't going to end well unless it's done slowly as Edmont suggests. I think he is angry due to a number of factors, from Edmont being so close to Haurchefant despite the latter being a bastard child, to the endless praise he has for the Warrior of Light, to the regard he holds Aymeric in, to jealousy over Artoriel finding his conviction. Emmanellain seems confused and unsure of what to do or where he fits in, something I am all too familiar with.

That said, I don't think there's anything particularly bad brewing in House Fortemps. It's just a microcosm of the political strife within Ishgard if you ask me.

Originally Posted by Cilia

Arguably that's why Alphinaud, Estinien, and Ysayle all become friends with the Warrior of Light to varying degrees - they treat you more like a person than a tool compared to how it was with the Scions' "Go kill this primal, Warrior of Light!"

I don't feel that it's right to call us a tool to them. If you want to say that anyone was a tool, it would more likely be the minor Scions hanging out in the storage room who get sent out on little missions. We are included among the major Scions, directly aided by them, and entrusted with some pretty important missions. They're not asking you to do anything without them, they're asking you to work with them, and since you're the one with both the Echo and the fighting abilities, your abilities are used in the best way by having you fight the Primals while the other Scions do what they excel at (other than normal combat) and gather information for you. Either way, we are never sent off on our own without any support.

Originally Posted by Emmanellain

Would it invalidate his death though? I mean we'd have an actual primal we would feel conflicted about putting down and it would be a smart move by the ascians since they're struggling in their fight against us. You'd have a primal that's more than just your typical Garuda, Titan, Ifrit ect. who are just sword fodder. Shiva was interesting and so was Ramuh since they were more complicated than just a standard primal. I mean I doubt SE would ever do it, but I don't see how it would invalidate his death considering he wouldn't be the Haurchefant we know but a mockery of his person, like Bahamut was according to Tiamat. In spirit Haurchefant would very much remain dead.

Keep in mind that no matter how conflicted we felt about Thancred's possession by Lahabrea (which of course Lahabrea used to twist the knife in the wound), we still would have been forced to kill him if we hadn't been able to save him. And no matter how one as the player might have felt about him, he was still a friend and comrade to their character, especially if they started in Ul'dah. You could say though that the primary reason for saving him was because Minfilia begged us to.

Originally Posted by Alleo

In this they showed that the soul becomes part of the great lifestream and maybe one day parts of it will go back and be reborn as another person. Later also we have the situation with Y`shtola who was in the lifestream for a short time but she said that she had a hard time to keep herself together.

These two things show me that this version of the afterlife does not include any kind of heaven. And that its quite likely that anyone that dies loose their own self and be united with the stream only to maybe one day be reborn again as a completely new person.

FFXIV's Lifestream is implied to work in much the same way as FFVII's, right? If so, we do know that strong souls keep their personalities and can freely navigate the Lifestream, such as Aerith and even Sephiroth (maybe even Zack to some extent), and other souls are merely part of the Lifestream, integrated into it, until they can be reborn. Since the Lifestream is the lifeblood of the planet in both series, it would make sense that rather than a meaningless heaven, it is instead a way for life to never truly end.

Originally Posted by Tenkuu

I don't feel that it's right to call us a tool to them. If you want to say that anyone was a tool, it would more likely be the minor Scions hanging out in the storage room who get sent out on little missions. We are included among the major Scions, directly aided by them, and entrusted with some pretty important missions. They're not asking you to do anything without them, they're asking you to work with them, and since you're the one with both the Echo and the fighting abilities, your abilities are used in the best way by having you fight the Primals while the other Scions do what they excel at (other than normal combat) and gather information for you. Either way, we are never sent off on our own without any support.

You're missing the point (and running on one quote that doesn't exist in-game for your argument). While we are given support, we're still just following orders. Nobody really cares what we want.

Ilberd's comments on how we're just a tool during "Keeping the Flame Alive," combined with many of the things Fray says during the DRK 30-50 line, really hit close to home. Nobody really cares what we want - not the city-states, not the Scions, not even Hydaelyn Herself - only what we can do for them.

Even if we're provided support, we're still just a tool. (But this is really off-topic...)

Originally Posted by Cilia

You're missing the point (and running on one quote that doesn't exist in-game for your argument). While we are given support, we're still just following orders. Nobody really cares what we want.

I don't really know what quote you're talking about, I didn't quote anybody from in-game. If you're talking about your own quote, I wasn't referring to it specifically, but rather just to the general idea behind it. You can't say that we're "just following orders" though, our input is asked for several times and we fight the Primals because we agree that they're a threat, not merely because we were asked to. Even if you wanted to use the orders argument, the other Scions all follow Minfilia's. If she sends them somewhere, they go, and if she asks them to return and report, they also do. It is simply the way that their organization is structured, but there is no coldness to it, it is simply for the sake of order and clarity.

Ilberd's comments on how we're just a tool during "Keeping the Flame Alive," combined with many of the things Fray says during the DRK 30-50 line, really hit close to home. Nobody really cares what we want - not the city-states, not the Scions, not even Hydaelyn Herself - only what we can do for them.

And why would you listen to Ilberd of all people? As for Fray, of course your dark side would find all of your doubts and insecurities and prey on them. Lahabrea did the same thing to Thancred, remember? Just because they bring it up doesn't mean that it's true; all it means is that in one moment of despair, people are inclined, or at the very least tempted, to believe those things.

Even if we're provided support, we're still just a tool. (But this is really off-topic...)

I can't agree with this. Having abilities and being useful, and having people around you make the most of those abilities while providing you with support, does not make you a tool. Besides, the tool argument would hardly apply to only us: the Scions have been at it since they were the Circle of Knowing and Path of the Twelve, for over 15 years (and they didn't get a 5-year magical break like us either), while at most we've maybe been around for one year (maybe two in total for legacy players if you consider that they might have been at it for one year as well). They've pretty much been single-handedly responsible for all the good that's come both before and after the Calamity, even being responsible for the Grand Companies, and yet they've lost Louisoix and it had a huge impact on them. As a whole, the Scions get used by everyone and don't even get paid much for it if we're to believe Tataru's complaints about money always being an issue.

This is why it always upsets me when people say things like we're just being used. Of course the bad guys would say it, out of ignorance at best and as an attempt to lead us astray and get us to turn on our friends at worst, but anyone who has really observed the Scions should know better than to think we're just being used by them. Losing them in 2.55 was not just a temporary loss of purpose for us, it was a devastating, crushing blow to our spirits, in addition to being a huge loss of resources. And this is the other thing: we use them as much as they use us, if not more so. All we do is fight and solve people's small problems, we're never asked to overthink things and all the resources and information we need are provided to us by others with the skills to gather them for us. We don't even have to deal with politics because others handle that for us as well. Were we just a lone adventurer bumbling about, we wouldn't know half the things we do, nor would we be able to accomplish any of the things that we have. I think it's extremely important to remember this.