The Greystone Bastard (naming lore query)

[CyberForte]

You're missing the point (and running on one quote that doesn't exist in-game for your argument). While we are given support, we're still just following orders. Nobody really cares what we want.

Ilberd's comments on how we're just a tool during "Keeping the Flame Alive," combined with many of the things Fray says during the DRK 30-50 line, really hit close to home. Nobody really cares what we want - not the city-states, not the Scions, not even Hydaelyn Herself - only what we can do for them.

Even if we're provided support, we're still just a tool. (But this is really off-topic...)

I really have to agree with Tenkuu here--I think you're seeing undertones that aren't there, possibly because of your personal perception of the situation as a player rather than a character. Ilberd is a delusional fool trying to bring you down to his level with whatever twisted rhetoric he happens to have on hand. The fact that he was naive enough to actually believe Lolorito would help him in the long run speaks volumes about just how perceptive he actually is(n't), and the fact that he saw Raubahn's success as something that needed to be torn down suggests he has a serious complex about trying to defame anyone who was actually successful. We've been significantly more successful than him, both as an adventurer and an enemy of the Empire, so of course he wants to try and pull us down.

Also, let's consider that he's the man who gave Eline that big speech about how he sold his sword but he would never turn on his allies--only to turn around and do just that. And even if you still want to take him seriously, I would personally interpret his "you" as a collective--accusing the Scions in general of being pawns of the city-states. Unless I'm badly mis-remembering the quote, it was the city states he accused of of being pawns of. And if we're sticking with the chess metaphor, then my personal answer to that is that if we were once a pawn, we've long-since become the pawn who crossed the board and became a Queen. Just because we're still following doesn't mean we don't agree, on the whole, with what we're doing. Maybe I was too quick to say you're entirely wrong, because a lot of this is open to interpretation based on your character. Obviously, the actual interpersonal relations with the Scions depend on that beyond what we see in the existing cutscenes. and dialog.

Speaking as a Dark Knight main, though, I feel you're reaching to associate the sense of being used that was presented in those quests as being caused by the Scions. No, it was very clearly building on the backlash of being betrayed in Ul'dah--a sense of being betrayed by the people we helped, as presented in the Lv 45 quest with the merchant who asked you to retrieve his goods, then turned around and tried to accuse you of having ruined them. It was the sense of ingratitude for what you'd done, not the fact that you had to do it--never mind that the flavor of quest being attacked was much more in line with sidequests than the main quest. Aside from the questgiver in the Lv 40 being afraid of you for "Frey's" outburst, there was no real negative consequence of saving the people there who actually needed to be saved.

Similarly, in the Lv 50, the knights who asked your help--like the Scions--proved to be good people who were willing to pull their own weight in dealing with the problem, and the accusation of Heresy wasn't actually a consequence of having helped them in any way. While your character might have personally felt backlash against the Scions, the quests themselves do not, as far as I can see, actually suggest that this should be the case for everyone.

Indeed, for me personally, the strongest argument against your claims is not the fact that the Scions gladly risked themselves to let us escape, but Minfilia's "you are my pillar of strength" scene. Given I had already felt very close to her before it, that scene--to me--cemented the sense of having a very close relationship with her, along with the rest of the Scions. Also note that the first thing she says when saved in 2.0 story, even before thanks, is that we shouldn't have risked ourselves to save her. That certainly isn't the way I'd expect someone to react to being saved by someone they saw only as a tool.

Edit: I do feel the need to add that Alphinaud is the exception here--but I never quite thought of him as one of the Scions. In 2.x quests, it's much easier to make the argument that he saw us as a tool, but that has a lot to do with his particular character, being a precocious son of the very elitist Sharlayan nobility. Alphinaud in 2.x saw himself as being much more important than he was, looking down on his sister and her views and seeing us as little more than a useful tool. But even that started to change over time, and in HW it's definitely almost entirely a thing of the past. But projecting Alphinaud's attitude onto the rest of the Scions doesn't strike me as a appropriate.

And back on topic--maybe for others, the fact that he didn't ask much of is was why they liked Haurchefant, but that wasn't a huge aspect of it to me. And where it was, it was not in contrast to the Scions and our other allies, but rather the fact that he was much, much, much more reasonable in his dealings with us than anyone in Coerthas had been. I certainly appreciated his enthusiasm in the scene where he'd actually had to be restrained from coming to help us fight, but us that really any different from, say, Thancred's frustration over not having arrived for Ifrit sooner? And according to Edmont, he saw us as hope personified--very similar to Y'shtola's sentiment of us being the beacon of hope toward which all men are drawn. At least for me personally, much of what made Haurchefant so deeply likable was his similarity to our (at that time missing) friends in willingness to help and support us unconditionally from 2.55-3.0.

[CyrilLucifer]

I don't know, I agree with Cilia to an extent. I believe it was repeated by another NPC, it wasn't just Ilberd saying it.

My viewpoint of it is that you are a weapon, but a well-cared for one, affectionately groomed, tempered, and well-oiled. You're not a weapon they'd care to lose, but other than Minfilia, who does show some interest at times, they aren't particularly interested in the weapon's mental state, at least in 2.X. It was a bit better in 3.0.

This really came off hard on me after Keeper of the Lake when, "lol, so what if you have a dragon in your head mocking you, sealing your power, telling you how insignificant and unworthy you are? We have things to do, get back to work!

Oh, and, you know, it would probably be pretty bad politically if you let anyone know about it, so keep it a secret, k?"

The first part is basically exactly what happened to Thancred, but he was driven by his own dark emotions rather than an external, extremely overwhelming primordial force whispering it and exerting influence, as Midgardsormr does to you. Look what happened to him when he pushed himself like your character does and no one stopped him.

[Alisa180]

*snip

Let's be fair here: It's outright stated that the WoL didn't tell the full story of what happened to them. It's only after everyone else leaves that they reveal to Minfilia that they lost the Blessing of Light, for instance, and only because she sensed something 'off'. (As a point in your favor, though, in the JP version Middy says there's no need to keep the seal a secret. Yet they do anyway.)

Its been made pretty clear that the WoL is a 'follower' instead of a 'leader.' That's not a bad thing, though. A good comparison, I think, is Zero from the Mega Man Zero series. Zero is a legendary hero, does all the fighting, and single-handily turns the tide of a war, but he follows the lead of others. In his words, he simply 'fights for the people he believes in.' Zero tried going off on his own for about a year, accomplished jack shit, and realized he needed to return to his friends to regain his purpose. Which he did, kicking off the plot of the second game.

The WoL is a very similar case. Remove the Scions from the equation, and they become aimless. See: Right after the attack on the Waking Sands. There was very little indication that they were going to go on to do anything more for a long while yet, before Alphinaud showed up and kicked them back into gear. Fact is, they need the Scions just as badly as they need us.

...Huh, thinking on it more, there are a number of thematic parallels between Zero from MMZ and the WoL. You should look up and read the MMZ game scripts sometime, and hopefully you'll catch onto what I mean.

[Cilia]

Let's clear up a few things people are mistaking me saying here.

I'm not saying Ilberd is right, just that he has a point. Or had one, anyway. Contextually speaking it's meant to make you question Thordan VII's intentions (as if we needed any more reason doubt a man who freely admitted to us that he trafficks with the Ascians), but it could be applied to the larger 2.x storyline where everybody's first reaction to a new primal popping up is to throw the Warrior of Light at it. Yes we do get support (mostly in the form of information) and yes we do (arguably) become friends with the Scions over time, but the only reason they brought you in is because Yda and Papalymo / Y'shtola / Thancred thought you would be a useful asset to the organization. Even they show little concern for your well-being, except a little bit from Minfilia here and there, but I think it should be remembered that she is the one leaning on us more often than it is the other way around. (That bit from her after Nabriales' defeat and Moenbryda's death, man, that kinda rustled my jimmies...)

We were emotionally devastated in the wake of the Ul'dah incident, but the point is we were originally brought into the Scions because we were a cool and badass fighter who impressed the local Scion(s), if I recall correctly. That's the point I'm trying to make. (Not sure if valid but servers are down and too tired to wait 8 minutes to check...)

As for Fray, major DRK spoilers, but...

The important thing to remember is that s/he is not bad, dark, evil, mean, or anything else you. Fray is you - the side of your personality you want to repress, that you want to ignore and forget about. While s/he does almost outright cite the Ul'dah incident as a source of PTSD, the main point of the questline is that the Warrior of Light's deepest, darkest wish is simply freedom, but since they come running the instant someone cries for help they will never have it. If we stopped doing every bit and errand for everyone who asks it of us, people in general might learn to solve their own problems and let us deal with the big issues that really need our attention, like Primals and Ascians, and we might be freed of Hydaelyn's yoke sooner.

Now, what does this have to do with Ilberd's comments (that, yes, were directed specifically at us)? Much of Fray's rage in the questline stems from people not leaving you alone and treating you like a tool to solve their problems, which Ilberd also comments on. While Fray does hold more credence as repressed personality traits, Ilberd also commenting on it hit way too close to home for me - kinda like the scene where Loki tells off Black Widow in the first Avengers movie. And, having soldiered through DRK 30-50 before really touching 3.0's story, it was still very fresh in my mind. (Better closure for 2.x than the MSQ delivered as well, IMO.)

As for what we can do without the Scions - we proved in 3.0 that we don't really need them to accomplish great things. We're running with just Alphinaud (largely a diplomat), Tataru (secretary and odd jobs), Yugiri (who may or may not be an official Scion?), and Urianger (who doesn't even show up until the eleventh hour to hand us an Auracite). We do get Y'shtola back and she is helpful, but by that point we've downed two primals, traversed an entire nation and then some, and brought to light truths that had been kept in the dark for a millennium. We accomplished plenty without them, even if we did still have Alphinaud to point the way.

Now, what does this all have to do with Haurchefant? Well, when it comes down to it, Minfilia (and by extension, the rest of the Scions more likely than not) "sacrificed" herself so we could get away since we're "Eorzea's hope." Haurchefant's reason for doing so was just because he didn't want to see us get hurt, which puts him closer to a real friend than one made out of convenience in my book. Yes, we saved Francel for him, but the only reason he couldn't do that was because of his station, and he asks nothing further of us. Haurchefant even brings us cocoa to help cheer us up after the Ul'dah incident! (Cf. the Scions, who give you nothing but meager pay and the tools to tackle the Primal of the week on occasion.)

People do get better about seeing the Warrior of Light as an actual person in 3.0, with Estinien chastising Alphinaud for knee-jerk deciding to throw us at Ravana. He's even worried when we get back, and admits that he's taken our successes for granted thus far, as if he's realizing for the first time we are people and we can die. After the Vault, the Warrior of Light is in almost a perpetual tranquil fury over Haurchefant's death and, even if you don't choose that dialogue option, vowed to avenge him - they're no longer just running on orders or considering what's best for everyone.

P.S. Tenkuu, I apologize if this is "demeaning [your] Scions," but I'm free to state my opinion. Disagree with as you may, that's how I feel.

[Haprimac]

snip

Thank you for writing this. This is exactly how I feel about Scions and the rest of the characters.

[Tenkuu]

IDK I think the Warrior of Light IS seen as a tool. This actually comes to a head in the Dark Knight quest chains. Part of the reason so many people love Haurchefant is he is genuinely attached to you and sees you as a person. The Scions do not dislike you, you are family, but you are also a means to an end for them. Alphinaud calls you his "champion" and is relieved when you come out of ordeals like the Vigil unscathed because it means he won't have to find a new one. Heavensward has him actually physically traveling alongside you and him learning to see you as a friend and not a tool is actually part of his character arc.

I believe that taking Alphinaud purely at his word is a mistake, for three important reasons. First, Alphinaud in ARR isn't really the type to talk about his feelings; he grandstands, puts on a brave face and is still in the middle of finding his purpose, but unlike Minfilia, he's pretty much all business about it. He didn't even like Eorzea when he first arrived here. This leads me to the second reason: Alphinaud has only just begun to find his purpose by the end of 2.55, and is just getting comfortable with his skills when he gets the rug pulled out from under him by Ilberd. Third: him calling you his champion is more in reference to you generally being the Scions' champion, and it's true anyway, so it's not like it's an insult. He's a kid, after all. In some ways, he's still going to act like one.

As regards the Scions though, they are *all* means to an end for everyone else, and have been for several years. They've also used others for their own purposes. It's a business relationship between their organization and others. However, amongst each other, none of you are means to an end: being able to get stuff done doesn't at all make you so.

To be entirely fair if we say no to fighting a primal, you're dooming quite a number of people. So it's not really a choice in that aspect since there's not really many people at all who can take down a primal like the WoL can.

Although I do think the WoL is being used because it's convenient. Yes I still think the Scions are our buddies (they definitely started seeing us as someone they could use for their organization but it grew past that) but they know if there's ever something they need, they can ask the WoL and the WoL will say yes (like the tame example of Yda sending you to get flowers--sure, she was kinda depressed etc. etc. but even Rowena pointed it out--WoL never says no). Which is why Hauchefant feels a bit different because he never really asked you to go risk your life to take down a primal for the good of the realm (at least as far as I recall)--I don't really recall him asking you to do anything rather he's there to back you up. I think perhaps the Scions are just so used to the WoL basically doing whatever for them so they come to rely on them which creates a feeling of being used.

The Scions helped you and gave you a lot of information about various things before they owed you anything, and that's really important to remember. So no, I don't think it grew from being used; rather, you became more useful as time went by and your strength grew. If you want to say that we had potential and they saw it though, that is definitely true. Also, we were not the first person to kill a Primal, and the Company of Heroes pretty much killed the toughest one of them long before us: Titan.

[Tenkuu]

Also, let's consider that he's the man who gave Eline that big speech about how he sold his sword but he would never turn on his allies--only to turn around and do just that. And even if you still want to take him seriously, I would personally interpret his "you" as a collective--accusing the Scions in general of being pawns of the city-states. Unless I'm badly mis-remembering the quote, it was the city states he accused of of being pawns of. And if we're sticking with the chess metaphor, then my personal answer to that is that if we were once a pawn, we've long-since become the pawn who crossed the board and became a Queen. Just because we're still following doesn't mean we don't agree, on the whole, with what we're doing. Maybe I was too quick to say you're entirely wrong, because a lot of this is open to interpretation based on your character. Obviously, the actual interpersonal relations with the Scions depend on that beyond what we see in the existing cutscenes. and dialog.

I'm equally certain that those who verbally attack us mean us the Scions rather than us the individual character. I also have a feeling that any misinterpretation is due, yet again, to a bad translation. I would love for someone to pull those scenes in japanese and translate them so that we could get a clearer picture of what's actually being said. The Warrior of Light is someone whose upstanding character is admired, so I agree with you, and I would even add that because of this personality trait, we would not fight for something that we did not believe in. Proof of that is evident in the way we handle those who betray us: we don't hesitate to fight them. Btw, even outside of the cutscenes you can see who the Scions are in their ever-changing idle animations in Waking Sands and Rising Stones, and what they are outside of their quests and fights (and even in a few MSQ cutscenes) are adorable goofs who like to poke fun at one another and enjoy their off time like regular people.

Speaking as a Dark Knight main, though, I feel you're reaching to associate the sense of being used that was presented in those quests as being caused by the Scions. No, it was very clearly building on the backlash of being betrayed in Ul'dah--a sense of being betrayed by the people we helped, as presented in the Lv 45 quest with the merchant who asked you to retrieve his goods, then turned around and tried to accuse you of having ruined them. It was the sense of ingratitude for what you'd done, not the fact that you had to do it--never mind that the flavor of quest being attacked was much more in line with sidequests than the main quest. Aside from the questgiver in the Lv 40 being afraid of you for "Frey's" outburst, there was no real negative consequence of saving the people there who actually needed to be saved.

I've barely started the DRK quests, though I did see a video of the level 50 quest, but speaking quite honestly here: what on Earth could the Scions have ever done to you to make you that angry and bitter with them in the first place?

[JonBigwood]

To be fair, bastard surnames are an actual tradition that GRRM just expanded on. The illegitimate children of English royals were sometimes called Fitzroy or "son of the king". But yeah, this is definitely invoking GRRM's works.

Yes, I think it is Game of Thrones thing. In England Fitz was used for bastards (not only royal), life Fitz James Stuart are from a bastard of King James of England and Scotland.

But I think usually if the father recognised the son (all Europe), he got the family name but no inheriting rights. (Fathers usually took care that their bastards did well too. Kings gave titles and lands or managed church positions, other important fathers too. Popes, cardinals, bishops etc also had bastards and took care of them, usually with their father family name.)

If there is no known father the son would normally have the mother's family name.

And when no father nor mother is known, they might receive some surname indicating that origin (such as Exposito in Spain) or just give the child a frequent family name. That idea that all bastards of some region or kingdom are given the same surname is Game of Thrones mostly.

[Dualblade]

I've barely started the DRK quests, though I did see a video of the level 50 quest, but speaking quite honestly here: what on Earth could the Scions have ever done to you to make you that angry and bitter with them in the first place?

This might just be me thinking it, but your Dark self from there is basically just your darkest self. GENERALLY the WoL wouldn't think of them that way, but your Dark version mostly only thinks in negative ways about everything else that it colors all of your memories...making it seem as if you were just being used, that they (and everyone else) don't give a damn about you, so why should you care?

I've seen Persona 4 be used as a comparison, and it fits. Your Dark self is you at your worst...which btw says alot since even with the pile of bodies there when you show up right before fighting none of them are dead. Even your darkest self is good.

[Cilia]

I'm equally certain that those who verbally attack us mean us the Scions rather than us the individual character. I also have a feeling that any misinterpretation is due, yet again, to a bad translation. I would love for someone to pull those scenes in japanese and translate them so that we could get a clearer picture of what's actually being said. The Warrior of Light is someone whose upstanding character is admired, so I agree with you, and I would even add that because of this personality trait, we would not fight for something that we did not believe in...

Since you're going to be pedantic like that, here is the exact quote.

*glances at the Warrior of Light* If you think you fight for justice, lad / lass, you'd best wake up. The truth is, you fight for whoever bloody well tells you to. Can you not see you're being used?! By the Scions, the city-states, even the Crystal Braves. They none of 'em care a whit what you want - only what you can do for them. And how do I know this? Because I'm the same - a pawn to be used as my masters see fit...

He goes on to whinge about Ala Mhigo, of course, but this is the important bit.

Of course, there's a big difference between working for the amoral Lolorito and working for the righteous, upstanding Scions, but he does have a point. We do good things, but only as the champion of others' causes. This is changing, as the Warrior of Light sought to finish the Knights of the Round in part to avenge Haurchefant and our collaboration with Leofard is entirely voluntary. That said, in 2.x we're just a tool to be thrown at whatever is bothering X city-state right now. We'd never fight for a cause we don't believe in, but that still doesn't change the fact we're not fighting for our own cause beyond self-preservation.

A translation of the Japanese dialogue just for comparison's sake would be nice, though.

I've barely started the DRK quests, though I did see a video of the level 50 quest, but speaking quite honestly here: what on Earth could the Scions have ever done to you to make you that angry and bitter with them in the first place?

Since we're not tagging spoilers here I guess... I dunno, maybe foisting the burden of being "Eorzea's hope" on you? Fray never says anything the Scions said or did impacted you in a meaningful way, but that's likely just because the issue doesn't come up during the storyline. Fray is a collection of all the "darkness" in your heart - all the negative thoughts and emotions you feel, but repress because you think it's wrong to feel and think that way.

Naturally, facing yourself is no easy task. The only thing that would have made it better would have been your Shadow, after manifesting, saying "I am a shadow of your true inner self..."

Lots of Persona 4 vibes after the big reveal.