How do you make a tank angry as a DPS?

[bounddreamer]

The tank style for PLD is very different from WAR, which can hold group aggro much more easily. I had a real learning curve leveling my PLD, but I never blamed the dps or heals for my inability to hold aggro.

Another thing making it harder for him is the lack of Shield Oath at that level, which really sucks.

[Almalexia]

The melee DPS gets hate. You are the PLD. Do you:

[ ] Desperately struggle to regain enmity while the melee DPS is pounded to death, then scold the melee DPS like a child who stole a cookie before dinnertime. Complain about the episode on the forums.
[ ] Allow the melee to die - indifferent to his plight - and lecture the party about how "I am the tank" and anyone who contests this precept is a shitlord troll. Complain about the episode on the forums.
[ ] Immediately leave the dungeon without a word and file a GM complaint. State you are woman/homosexual/ethnic minority/disabled/Japanese in the complaint, regardless of applicability or fact. Complain about the episode on the forums. Complain about the GM's handling of the situation on the forums in a separate thread.
[ ] Cover
[ ] Level WAR

Please select one (1) of the choices above.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Can I take a sixth option?

[Shurrikhan]

What ticks off my tanks...
Failing to pull or position mobs for the tank on a speed-run when he other things to be doing, failing to maximize dps, failing to let him maximize dps, and/or failing to let him let the party maximize dps.

So, yesterday I was playing a BRD in Haukke Manor and the tank was level synced. He was a PLD (and we all know PLDs need to rotate their aggro around so as to keep hate pre-40) and I kept putting my DoTs on a single target until it was dead. At first, he didn't mark, so I figured he was able to keep aggro on multiple enemies at once by rotating. He didn't. I got aggro, party died before the first boss fight due to incompetence. Tank blames it on me for pulling aggro like so when he could've kept it by rotating his aggro around. Did I forget to mention he was a 60 WAR?

He marks the targets this time. We get through the first boss. Come 2nd round of Adds and into the basement corridors, tank starts being mad at me for pulling aggro when I'm not; the healer is pulling aggro because he's not sharing Savage Blade and RoH all around town(plus Flash). What I'm wondering is why he's getting angry at me for pulling aggro away from him when I'm not even encroaching on the aggro table for all enemies.

At those levels, I kept a one-macro summary on the merits of Flash and rotating. I'd keep your enmity bars in view, tab through the group between shots to check where you can place spare enmity, etc., but ultimately the tank will have to know which mobs to rotate through to keep threat off the dps and healer, and when rotating won't be sufficient. If he doesn't, his only option is to blame you for doing your job (of which enmity control is a part, but a part limited by the tank).

Only other tip I can give to Archers to hold off on releasing Bloodletter until Savage Blade / Skull Sunder. He'll be doing 150->600->1300 (GLD) or 150->750->1540 (MRD) enmity per combo, or 500 for an unbuffed RoH or 550 for an unbuffed Butcher, 600 AoE for a Flash, or 330 (385?) per Overpower. The Sword Oath will at least toss in an extra 50 potency between Fast and Savage Blade, so if he hits first and auto attacks instantly, you shouldn't pull on Straight Shot.

[Jpec07]

Well, OP, you did everything right in my book. That tank was just an idiot.

As for marking, I do it because as PLD, we still struggle for enmity in every situation (yes, even in HW content - we got gipped in terms of enmity generation). No amount of showing off nipples is going to keep those Republican mobs trying to kill you when there's a competent BLM or SMN in the group (and Twelve help you should you have both). I usually have a good reason for the priority I establish, though if someone pulls off me, I 'voke-lob until the mob is back on me (and cycle an RoH or two on them). It's a little easier on DRK and WAR, where the challenge is in surviving, but gear gaps can still make it challenging.

I will say that the easiest thing you can do to piss me off as a DPS is not communicate, and not cooperate with the group. If you want faster pulls, ask for them. If you see the wrong priority in marking, comment on it. If you'd like to kill everything for EXP, say so at the start. Chances are, I'll listen, or if not, we can come to an understanding and avoid getting pissed at each other.

Oh, and don't pull ahead (there is almost nothing that annoys me more). Especially not if you're a DRG in Thousand Maws of Totorak, who thinks its funny to go the way the group didn't go, and then gets pissy when you die because the group didn't follow your lead. Then you will become the most satisfying vote-kick to ever pass.

[whiskeybravo]

problem with alot of dps- is they think their job is JUST dps, its also managing your agro as well.

Rarely.. Only times it needs managing is with a big gear discrepancy or just flat out because someone doesn't know how aggro works (Those Riot Blade spamming Gladiators >.>)

Even low level it's not a problem. Wear str accessories = profit. Meld a little vit if you want to. I've never needed to throttle dps when the tank actually knows what he's doing, nor do I expect any dps to throttle when I'm tanking. Go balls out, and I'm not marking them either, I'll just adjust to whichever is being attacked if it's not the one I started with. Pretty simple stuff.

The only way to really solve these problems is by teaching people. If they don't want to listen then so be it, drop it, it's not worth arguing over or coming on the forums to call people out. At some point it will click and they'll learn. Or they won't /shrug

[Shurrikhan]

<Above>

Even now tanks don't typically have so much threat while leveling that they can make up for 2 DPS each popping CDs and single-targetting two different enemies if they're of equal or greater gear to the tank. Granted, if they were thinking about how to 'kill shit fast' rather than 'just DPS', the enmity concerns would almost all be avoided by the same sort of order of operations that 'killing shit' follows. But if they're truly just looking at how to maximize DPS, your BLM will likely be Fire II spamming while your low-TP Ninja sits full time on a single-mob (likely without even DoTing each enemy first), wasting potential DPS and either ST or AoE tank enmity.

Sometimes I really wish every player was forced to do a no-tank run at some point (especially if with a positional DPS class) so they would have to learn how to 1) deal with enmity, 2) mitigate without a tank, and 3) use dps for survival (the race to kill vs. healer mana depletion). [Might even include 4) CC...]

[whiskeybravo]

Even now tanks don't typically have so much threat while leveling that they can make up for 2 DPS each popping CDs and single-targetting two different enemies if they're of equal or greater gear to the tank. Granted, if they were thinking about how to 'kill shit fast' rather than 'just DPS', the enmity concerns would almost all be avoided by the same sort of order of operations that 'killing shit' follows. But if they're truly just looking at how to maximize DPS, your BLM will likely be Fire II spamming while your low-TP Ninja sits full time on a single-mob

I mean bad stuff can happen anytime.. But for the most part, a tank has everything they need to keep aggro even on dps attacking different enemies, even at the lowest levels. You just have to match (or exceed) the tenacity of the dps xD Most new tanks don't attack with the same frequency as a dps and that's their main problem

[Zari]

I dont even main the tank role (im a healer) and I've never had much problem with dps pulling aggro, even when they are the ones that dont pay attention to the aggro meter. If someone needs to mark mobs past lv 50 (unless its like a high priority mob like bees or something. Marking those is fine) just to be able to keep hate then I'm sorry but they are not as good a tank as they seem to think they are.

[Shurrikhan]

I dont even main the tank role (im a healer) and I've never had much problem with dps pulling aggro, even when they are the ones that dont pay attention to the aggro meter. If someone needs to mark mobs past lv 50 (unless its like a high priority mob like bees or something. Marking those is fine) just to be able to keep hate then I'm sorry but they are not as good a tank as they seem to think they are.

I honestly have trouble with this sometimes just because I assume that people know how to minimize encounter time, and what a kill order generally looks like. I'll do 3 DF runs (busy being an insomniac and capping Eso on Tuesday morning, etc) where both melee attack the same target, killing it in about the time of the shortest DoT (or the longest where the shortest DoT almost finishes its duration twice, etc), while DoTing others where efficient. Then I go into another where the DRG wants to pop everything on a fly (well, swarm thereof) that could have died from 4 Fire IIs anyways and bitches when he pulls because I'm attacking the one thing that will actually live for more than 12 seconds after establishing AoE threat (with stacks almost ready for another AoE). Sorry, that's a vent...

Long story short though: I honestly don't remember any time when leveling where I couldn't pull off the tank if I wanted to. I didn't (for so long that I'd be called the tank, at least), because I dispersed enmity according to what was established, which was usually also whatever was logical, or used enmity-controlling CDs. At no point would my pulling necessarily mean that my tank was bad. At most, it typically would mean that he prepped a different kill order that I didn't bother to observe.