How would you feel about end-game gear only being useful for 3 months?

[Jennestia]

I like flavor items like FFXI had that lasted for long periods of time. In a game where you have the ability to level every class on 1 character, you may need several different gear sets. If they did a tier system then you'd end up getting locked to one class because linkshells will have to funnel gear more evenly so that everyone remains on the same tier. Those with multiple classes leveled wont have the opportunity to collect sets for all of their classes when they have a 3 month expiration date on them. By making gear last longer, people can collect important gear and use them for long periods of time while collecting loot for their secondary classes without having to worry about their main class becoming expired in the process.

I liked the FFXI loot system as opposed to most modern loot systems, but a tier system appeals to a greater majority of MMO players unfortunately. It just doesn't synergize well with this type of game, imo.

Yeah, and sadly MMO gamers these days also prefer systems where anything you accomplish can be thrown out the window in a matter of a month if the update cycle is that quick.

[Ava]

Yeah, and sadly MMO gamers these days also prefer systems where anything you accomplish can be thrown out the window in a matter of a month if the update cycle is that quick.

I enjoy a tier system in a game that supports that type of system. I thought it was fine in WoW, it was fun collecting loot constantly, but I will also say I never had that feeling in WoW of killing that NM and finding a drop I can send to all my alts that will last me from level 1-70, yet I always yearned for it.

Still, despite feeling that both systems can work in the right game, and both can be enjoyable, FFXIV just doesn't foster the right environment for a tier system. Especially with how they want to make gear class restricted.

[Krin]

If they did a tier system then you'd end up getting locked to one class because linkshells will have to funnel gear more evenly so that everyone remains on the same tier.

That is some good insight. I hadn't thought of that. I'm still getting used to the implications and dynamics of the Armory, soon-to-be Jobs system.

I can definitely see why even people on the casual side of the spectrum would be upset. Where as the all mighty Gear Grind is simply recognized as bad in other MMORPG's, it would be a disaster in the game's current framework.

I specifically chose to plunk down the money for the standard edition FFXIV because I wanted to play with the whole "play whatever you feel like playing today" aspect. I can see how I would become extremely dissatisfied with the end game if I became locked into particular classes because of gear.

Hee hee, funny that. The argument that wins me over is purely mechanics based and requires very little of all those abstract, esoteric, ideas that Azurymber and I were tossing around. I'm in full agreement now.

The only question I have remaining is what is a good solution to this? I've heard the loud complaints that FFXI had an obnoxiously excessive life cycle for gear. I've also noted that everyone eventually ended up just wandering around in the exact same gear. Everyone in Job X looked alike.

Perhaps the slower pace I previously described, combined with the materia system, can make equipment relevant stat wise for a very long time. Meanwhile, the greatest and newest remains obviously so by look, but at the stat level remains advantageous, but not excessively so. That may work, but it's a very delicate thing to grant an advantage for the newer gear without causing people with older, well materia'ed gear to be left behind on raid night.

[NoctisUmbra]

That is some good insight. I hadn't thought of that. I'm still getting used to the implications and dynamics of the Armory, soon-to-be Jobs system.

Actually the Armoury System isn't going anywhere. Classes will remain intact. In fact new ones will be added. People will still be able to mix and match skills almost 100% freely as they do now. The Job System is a separate add-on to the Armoury System.

Essentially one can say that the Job System is to the Armoury System what Materia craft is to the crafting system.

[Azurymber]

lotsssss of text

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I shouldn't have assumed you had played FFXI.

towards the no rich without poor argument: The poor are better off because of the rich UNDER capitalism. And the rich may not get more enjoyment out of life than the poor person does. If there was never capitalism the poor would have been a lot worse off. However, the poor -outside- of capitalism or in countries with corrupt capitalism (china) are worse off and essentially leeched on by the rich in the west.
I guess in the game you might say that the rich or elite improve the game for noobs by stimulating a market for trade and creating a competitive incentive to get rich thus further stimulating the economy making every player better off.
But what you say is -exactly- right

And I agree that the desire to be best isn't universal. But having people who are best provides a rolemodel to work towards. I know you haven't played FFXI but if you talk to people who started the game and saw JP's with "AF" gear (special job-specific quested gear that looked epic) a lot of people actually chose their jobs or played the game specifically to get that gear.

I personally think a better system is one in which there are a few very difficult items that will -always- be a huge improvement on other items. Then there are a few "very hard to get elite versions' of those items that have like +1 extra str or something and in reality make very little difference. And then you have weapons and normal armor which do consistently improve over time with new raids and updates and do become easier for the average person to get.
The problem I see with a constant 3-month elite, then easy to get, method. Is that it results in too much of a focus on raiding, in a game that has fairly average raids.

To counter the argument of people logging in 2 years later to do the same thing, all you do is create situational dungeons that make use of different abilities and play styles. That way you feel like you're not just one static boring job but have a variety of different roles and can be versatile. Then you make new gear that benefit specific roles.

For example let take MRD and look at 10 possible raids:
raid 1 3 and 7: MRD is an AOE tank. So +VIT gear is very useful
raid 2 and 4: MRD is a single target DD, so gear that enhances certain ws's or atk and str is best
raid 5 and 9: MRD is a debuffer using disorient to lower the ACC on major bosses + backup tank
raid 6 8 and 10: MRD is a DD, AOE DD and TANK, and Debuffer.

So basically you have some raids where you can go through with one set of gear. And then maybe more elite raids requires you to change gear for diff parts (kinda like how i end up going arc to the ogre in dzaemel and then mrd to the boss).

This way you would still allow for new gear to be implemented, but wouldn't diminish the effort put into getting current gear you have. Further, linkshells would always have incentives to do -all- raids. And even further there is an incentive to get gear.

If gear becomes outdated even every half a year why bother getting it? You can prob do everything in this game with somewhat gimped or buyable gear so why waste time and effort to get something that will just be useless in a few months. The game needs some things to work towards that will -always- be good, so people have a reason to invest their time into getting them. This could be many things, such as gear from a very hard raid that probably requires you to have the best gear from easier raids to beat.

And I also preferred cheating in oblivion lol.

TLDR: we agree on nearly everything.

[NoctisUmbra]

In a world where long walls of text collide, two rivals will learn after extended discussion that they've been singing the same song.

This summer, coming to a theater near you;

[SIZE="6"]Debate Fantasy XIV[/SIZE]

$#*% just got real.

[Krin]

MOAR TEXT BOMBS!

I like that. Also, the situational content allows you to have a protracted period where anyone can join in, given proper gear. The thing I hated most about WoW was I started playing at the release of Lich King. I'm such a lore and crafting whore it took me till past midway through Lich King's life cycle to get to the end game. At that point, I got sidelined till the expansion because I wasn't viable in raids because it required gear from the previous 2 or 3 patches and no one was running that content anymore. It took until the next expansion for me to even get into a raid, because I had to wait for the all mighty gear reset. This same problem has been griped about in most similar MMORPG's. Your solution poses a very ingenious solution to that exact problem.

It can also help limit level cap raises and gear resets to expansion packs, giving the game a longer life span and much more stable long term outlook.

The only thing I worry about is game balancing. I'm sure the guys at SE have this down to a science, but the Armory system along makes for a migraine with what little statistics and math modeling I did take. There are trillions of combinations of skills to take into a fight and next to none of the variances are trivial. On the other hand, this is SE, and they have made some brilliant strokes of genius along the way. :-)

The other thing I see here is we definitely will have to wait and see. Situational content requires complex battles, and right now we need the battle system pinned down. We should certainly keep this in mind and rehash this discussion after 1.19 and 1.20 hits and we've fiddled with it. Probably post 1.19, because 1.20's list of to-do's will have a direction, but not be completely pinned down.

I saw somewhere else where someone was like, "Raids should drop vanity items!!!" I like that, but not ONLY that. Spiffy items that do silly trivial things on occasion are nice, actually. In addition to the awesome sauce gear drops, we should also see vanity items with fairly common drops. Something that you can hand out without much drama to people so they can say, "OMG, I got Batraal's wings of do-nothing last night! Check it out!!" Again, another way to mash the button that doesn't off balance game play. This way, if your pulling a newbie through Dark Hold and there's still some gear to be had for your main people, you can hand that out to them. Hey, if it drops a solid 40% of the time, you're going to see it again soon.

I only hope that this portion of our discussion isn't too far deeply buried in the thread the reps don't see it. ;-)

In a world where long walls of text collide, two rivals will learn after extended discussion that they've been singing the same song.

This summer, coming to a theater near you;

[SIZE="6"]Debate Fantasy XIV[/SIZE]

$#*% just got real.

Epic post is epic awesome. I died laughing when I read this. :-)

[Ava]

I'm still crossing my fingers for a "Trial of the Magians" system in FFXIV. It was one of the greatest ideas the new FFXI crew came up with, it solves pretty much every casual/elite problem in regards to gear. With Trial of the Magians they could do whatever they want, tiered system or a non linear system like FFXI and both would be fine.

[Ilean]

Yeah, and sadly MMO gamers these days also prefer systems where anything you accomplish can be thrown out the window in a matter of a month if the update cycle is that quick.

Perhaps these days' MMO gamers realize that XI style gear cycle was nothing but lazyness from SE, where they would make one single "raid" every expansion and just place the carrot really far ahead by grueling special currency farming and the crappiest drop rates. Maybe these days MMO gamers actually demand content to be supplied often, instead of crap drop rates that force them to do the same dungeon over and over and over and over...


Also, perhaps these days MMO gamers are no longer mostly nolifers, but regular gamers. The kind who play non MMOs as much and as hard as any MMO nerd wants to believe that only he can, but not necessarily can or want to sink their lives into a MMO.

[User201109011315]

Perhaps these days' MMO gamers realize that XI style gear cycle was nothing but lazyness from SE, where they would make one single "raid" every expansion and just place the carrot really far ahead by grueling special currency farming and the crappiest drop rates. Maybe these days MMO gamers actually demand content to be supplied often, instead of crap drop rates that force them to do the same dungeon over and over and over and over...


Also, perhaps these days MMO gamers are no longer mostly nolifers, but regular gamers. The kind who play non MMOs as much and as hard as any MMO nerd wants to believe that only he can, but not necessarily can or want to sink their lives into a MMO.

That's probably a fair point.

But what's the point of releasing content anyway if no one wants to do it? This is what will happen if you make your carrots obsolete every so often.

keeping all content relevant , even old content, is important, especially for a slow company like SE.