Are my mitigation numbers off ?

[Reynhart]

Since you're still not considering Oaths/Grit, I'll do the numbers here for you.

If you consider Shield Oath and Grit, you have to consider Defiance, too. And since they mostly give you the same eHP, it's much easier, and not very relevant, to ignore them.
Or else, you have to convert every mitigation into eHP, which is not doable with Hallowed Ground, since it gives you "infinite HP" for its duration.

Several points about performance loss

Yes, you're right, a WAR (or a DRK) shouldn't focus all on mitigation, and so is DRK. The problem is that, if they chose to, they could outdo PLD. On the other hand, if PLD decide to focus on DPS...they'll still be far below WAR and DRK. Oh, and by the way, even when focused on mitigation, WAR and DRK will also do more damage than PLD.

And remember, that, in your adjusted mitigation numbers, you still didn't include Holmgang and Walking Dead

[Ralvenom]

If you consider Shield Oath and Grit, you have to consider Defiance, too. And since they mostly give you the same eHP, it's much easier, and not very relevant, to ignore them.

Defiance doesn't reduce damage, only increases health and healing on self. So, if we're strictly considering the mitigation of active mitigation abilities, adding Defiance into the mix does NOT affect WAR's percentages.

Does it affect eHP? Yes, but the effects of Defiance really only affect WAR's passive mitigation (constant increase in healing received, increased parry based on Wrath Stacks, constant increase of health -- while Defiance is active). It's also worth noting that a WAR who is constantly in Defiance is "doing it wrong".

Yes, you're right, a WAR (or a DRK) shouldn't focus all on mitigation, and so is DRK. The problem is that, if they chose to, they could outdo PLD.

Thordan Ex's (mostly) physical damage called. It says "Hello".

[Reynhart]

Defiance doesn't reduce damage, only increases health and healing on self.

Technically yes, but calculations have been made to prove that all tanks starts at the same "state" when using their Tank stance.
And if we do a step by step fight with real HP and real damage, both eHP and mitigation will affect the outcome.
Did we already mention that WAR also has the most eHP increase with its skills ?

Thordan Ex's (mostly) physical damage called. It says "Hello".

Oh, nice. Long time I had news from him.
How do his children do ? You know, Lightning Storm, Ancient Quaka, Sacred Cross, Holiest Of Holy...

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Yes, you're right, a WAR (or a DRK) shouldn't focus all on mitigation, and so is DRK. The problem is that, if they chose to, they could outdo PLD. On the other hand, if PLD decide to focus on DPS...they'll still be far below WAR and DRK. Oh, and by the way, even when focused on mitigation, WAR and DRK will also do more damage than PLD.

And remember, that, in your adjusted mitigation numbers, you still didn't include Holmgang and Walking Dead

You even mentioned it yourself that Holmgang doesn't mitigate anything. Holmgang and Living dead are impossible to calculate here as there are too many factors involved that I'm not going to bother to omit here. I'm pointing out you're mistaken on two ends:
1) Paladin isn't in such a terrible shape as you think it is in the mitigation department
2) You're using a scenario that's not only impracticable but also impossible

Edit:

Oh, nice. Long time I had news from him.
How do his children do ? You know, Lightning Storm, Ancient Quaka, Sacred Cross, Holiest Of Holy...

Now you're throwing in raid based damage as well? In that case, you're forgetting about Divine Veil here. And conveniently enough, the mechanics in that particular encounter makes groups stack up for a lot of things

[Reynhart]

You even mentioned it yourself that Holmgang doesn't mitigate anything.

Yes, to point out that they are real "Oh, shit!" button, whereas Hallowed Ground is frequently a part of the usual cooldown rotation.

The problem is not that PLD is in a "terrible" shape. It isn't. The problem is that, WAR DPS is definitely better than PLD. It's expected, since it's its purpose.
But, mitigation wise, the gap between the two is not that clear, even hanging dangerously on the "WAR can be better" side.

And since WAR and PLD are both "physical" tanks, the scenario is not so implausible.

[Giantbane]

Average mitigation isn't everything. PLD uses cooldowns individually and gets the full benefit of them. WAR and DRK stack Inner Beast and Dark Mind with other cooldowns which means that they're less effective. Sentinel itself is 40%, Inner Beast+Vengeance is only 44%, not 50%.

Don't think of it like that. If you do, you start fooling yourself into thinking Defiance works a lot differently (outside of heal abilities) than Shield Oath when considering additional cooldowns. IE, WARs cooldowns are somehow *better* because they're not diminished by Defiance in the same way PLD's cooldowns are diminished by Shield Oath. Which is just not true at all.

Think of it in terms of effective HP and effective healing, not just mitigation, if you want to analyze these skills. You'll find that abilities actually work better when stacked together in terms of boosts to effective HP and effective healing. What you're sort of getting at is that even if that's true, it's often dumb to stack them all at once when you don't need to. Being nigh invulnerable for 10s isn't worth it if you're completely exposed for the next 2-3min or so.


Separately, if you're worried about maintaining constant mitigation over time, I'm pretty sure the WAR still wins. They can always Inner Beast > Infuriate > Inner Beast > Vengeance > Inner Beast > Raw Intuition > Inner Beast > Thrill + Convalescence + Foresight > Inner Beast > Infuriate > Inner Beast and maintain about 1 minute, 31seconds of solid, unbroken 20%+ physical mitigation. The PLD can what, Rampart > Sentinel > Bulwark > Hallowed Ground with maybe an unreliable Sheltron or two thrown in for a good 55s? And that's not even 100% reliable due to Bulwark. After that you're on fumes with whatever your natural block rate is and a cross classed foresight on its own with a longer cooldown.

After this, the WAR will have inner beast up again very quickly, Intuition is ready after 90 seconds and Vengeance + the Thrill combo are ready every 2min. The PLD, on the other hand, only gets Rampart back after 90s. Sentinel and Bulwark are 3min, and Hallowed is 5min (or is it 6, I forget...).

[Reynhart]

Hallowed is 5min (or is it 6, I forget...).

S...e...v...e...n

[Giantbane]

And since WAR and PLD are both "physical" tanks, the scenario is not so implausible.

PLD is the physical tank, DRK is the magical tank, WAR is the everything tank. I personally don't think it's very good balance.


However, there is one caveat to all this. Most parses and what not that say WAR is the damage king always include a lot of stance dancing with Fel Cleaves and only using storm's path when necessary. When they're doing this, they're losing a LOT of their mitigation since they're losing their main mitigation tool, Inner Beast.

What you're talking about here is a WAR in full on, defensive, tank mode. If they never drop out of Defiance in order to maximize their defenses, I wonder what happens to the WAR DPS. My guess is that the WAR is going to take a huge hit, and may not be much if any better than the PLD in that regard.

Assuming that's the case, the comparison between the two classes isn't as straightforward. Although the WAR is still better off because they can weave in and out of Defiance easily with little penalty, while the DRK & PLD suffer broken combos and lost GCDs.

[Freyyy]

Using Vengeance out of the blue to get a stack back is far from practical, thus that leaves only Berserk.

Bro do you even Raw Intuition ?

Edit:

Oh and,

Now you're throwing in raid based damage as well? In that case, you're forgetting about Divine Veil here. And conveniently enough, the mechanics in that particular encounter makes groups stack up for a lot of things

Unless you're bringing a MNK in your group, Divine Veil doesn't even nearly compensates the lack of Delirium and Reprisal. Divine Veil's CD is the big problem. In Thordan EX, the only moment where Divine Veil is better is for the boss's LB since it's untargettable. But with Deployment Tactics, having Divine Veil or not doesn't make any difference. You'll just let Medica II tick for longer before having people back at 100%, thus leading into less overheal anyway. The only true advantage of PLD over DRK on Thordan EX is Sheltron for Heels and cleaves, and Clemency during Holy Bladedance since it doesn't cancel the cast. It's better selfish mitigation at the cost of raid-wide mitigation.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

snip

You'll have to throw that at the OP as he's the one being selective about what data to include or not - if you've been reading the rest at all.

So far he omited:
Shield presence
Effective tankbuster mitigation
Fluff mitigation
Group composition collaborated mitigation
Tankbuster mitigation amount performed in succession (T13 for example)
Mitigation in a short timeframe

Possibly more than just that