Are my mitigation numbers off ?

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

You seem to completely forget the eHP thing. Defiance (Equivalent to Shield Oath for tank busters) and Thrill of Battle + Convo (equivalent to 17% mitigation) also exist. And you're again forgetting Raw Intuition. The king of mitigation right now is WAR, bottom line.

He's talking about mitigation. I mentioned eHP in my one of my previous post and I did include Raw Inuitition in the Warrior mitigation percentage in this post.

[Donjo]

We're talking about mitigation here and I doubt anyone here doubts the Paladin's position with the DPS driven meta, thus irrelevant.

As for "king of mitigation", on attacks where it counts they actually do possess the most mitigation. Whether they actually deserve the title of "king" is another story. Warriors using everything they have on a physical attack mitigates 48.16% of the damage. Sentinel combined with Shield Oath has 48.16% at the expense of one CD. Even if it's their longest CD aside from Hallowed Ground. For the next tankbuster within the next 90 seconds, Warriors are down to 19% mitigation. That's less than what just Shield Oath or Rampart has to offer. If it was a magical attack, warriors would have even less mitigation. Dark Knight on the other hand would hold a much better position. Their weakness for repeated physical tank busters becomes very apparent.

The new content caters the Dark Knight job far more than Paladin. But if Dark Knights were around for coil, they would have been the least favourite tank.

...What? If a Warrior throws every Physical Friendly tool at something(This being Defiance, Raw Intuition, Vengeance, Thrill+Conva, Path, Foresight, and Inner Beast) it is an effective 75.36% reduction in damage. Exactly 90 seconds later they can toss everything except for Vengeance and Thrill+Conva back in there to get 57.6%. If PLD does exactly the same thing they have 77.1% on the first hit and 58.5% 90 seconds later.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

...What? If a Warrior throws every Physical Friendly tool at something(This being Defiance, Raw Intuition, Vengeance, Thrill+Conva, Path, Foresight, and Inner Beast) it is an effective 75.36% reduction in damage. Exactly 90 seconds later they can toss everything except for Vengeance and Thrill+Conva back in there to get 57.6%. If PLD does exactly the same thing they have 77.1% on the first hit and 58.5% 90 seconds later.

You'll have to throw that at the OP as he's not including eHP or self healing. I'll respond with similar circumstances.

[eagledorf]

Eh, your conclusion is correct. PLD's unacceptable lower DPS is being explained with an outright lie that it provides superior mitigation and/or utility, but you're exaggerating the situation for physical damage.

Assuming physical damage (because Halone alone makes PLD substantially weaker on magic damage) and only working with smooth damage (because a 30% Sheltron for a physical tank buster is huge and it gets impossible to try to make generalized comparisons) for a kite shield in the game right now you get about 25% block rate and a 22% block strength so that makes for an extra 5% mitigation all over while you lose only 25% of your parry chance so for a 20% parry rate you only lose 5% (or 1% total mitigation). That number might be exaggerated a bit, but at the same time it's going to go up with gear so it's probably close enough. The Awareness trait also means that you gain an extra 10s on Awareness. For a boss that crits 10% of the time, Awareness is just under 5% mitigation so that trait difference is another 0.4% or so for the auto-attack damage (plus you can't parry/block crits). You also do have Stoneskin, which cancels but is an extra shield when you can time it to go off.

On the other hand, you also need to factor in that WAR gets the Foresight trait and Parry from Wrath if you want to be complete. All told PLD does not appreciably outperform WAR on physical damage in terms of mitigation. For something like A2, PLD does do somewhat better due to receiving much more effective heals (5% in general, 18.5% with Convalescence, 25% for Lustrate/Tetragramaton), but as we know getting bigger heals is not as good as or comparable to mitigation so it's comparing apples to oranges.

What's really inexcusable is when you break it up to magic and physical. WAR will perform basically just as well as the specialized tanks for both while DRK will fall way behind on physical and PLD on magic. At the same time it provides the most important utility of the tanks and is the most ideal OT for DPS while PLD provides the lowest DPS for no reason whatsoever.

[Reynhart]

because a 30% Sheltron for a physical tank buster is huge

Keep in mind that if Sheltron works, it means that you could have blocked the hit anyway. It only made it more reliable.
And that using Sheltron technically replace your native "passive" mitigation.

[eagledorf]

Yeah, ok. So say you use a tower shield (the best shield for Sheltron). Assume it has a 15% block rate and a 30% block strength. On average your Sheltron increases mitigation by 26% so it's still an excellent skill.

Not trying to say there's no problem. WAR being just as good at physical, better at magic, and more DPS/utility than PLD is not balance no matter how Yoshida tries to cut it.

[Reynhart]

On average your Sheltron increases mitigation by 26% so it's still an excellent skill.

How do you obtain that number ?

If your shield blocks 30% of damage 15% of the time, it means the average mitigation is 4.5%

At most, Sheltron's "effective" duration is 3s (Less on multiple targets, but never more, since it only blocks one hit). It means that it mitigates 30%, of damage, at most, 10% of the overall time (Duration/Recast) for, at most, 3% average mitigation.
On the 90% remaining time, your basic block rate applies., so 90%*4.5% = 4.05%

So, by combining Sheltron and passive Block, you obtain 3%+4.05% = 7,05%.

The benefit of Shletron is not to mitigate a lot more, but mitigate more reliably.

[Freyyy]

How do you obtain that number ?

Because it increases your block rate from 15% to 100% for the hit you want to mitigate.

[CGMidlander]

How do you obtain that number ?

If your shield blocks 30% of damage 15% of the time, it means the average mitigation is 4.5%

At most, Sheltron's "effective" duration is 3s (Less on multiple targets, but never more, since it only blocks one hit). It means that it mitigates 30%, of damage, at most, 10% of the overall time (Duration/Recast) for, at most, 3% average mitigation.
On the 90% remaining time, your basic block rate applies., so 90%*4.5% = 4.05%

So, by combining Sheltron and passive Block, you obtain 3%+4.05% = 7,05%.

The benefit of Shletron is not to mitigate a lot more, but mitigate more reliably.

Using average mitigation is a flawed way of looking at how things work in practice, since the game is largely focused on mitigating (predictable) tank busters. If average mitigation mattered much, then parry wouldn't be regarded as such a crap stat. (Well, it'd still be bad because it scales poorly, but you know what I mean right?)

[Freyyy]

How do you obtain that number ?

If your shield blocks 30% of damage 15% of the time, it means the average mitigation is 4.5%

At most, Sheltron's "effective" duration is 3s (Less on multiple targets, but never more, since it only blocks one hit). It means that it mitigates 30%, of damage, at most, 10% of the overall time (Duration/Recast) for, at most, 3% average mitigation.
On the 90% remaining time, your basic block rate applies., so 90%*4.5% = 4.05%

So, by combining Sheltron and passive Block, you obtain 3%+4.05% = 7,05%.

The benefit of Shletron is not to mitigate a lot more, but mitigate more reliably.

He was speaking about when you toggle Sheltron to mitigate a specific attack. Even if you could also have blocked it WITHOUT Sheltron, using Sheltron still increases your average mitigation FOR THE INCOMING HIT by 26% with a 30% block strength shield in comparison to if you didn't use Sheltron.

Average sustained mitigation doesn't matter in this game.