Current state of MCH?

[Myon88]

Is their gameplay similar though? I mean obviously they both have WM/GB cast times, but that's like saying SMN and BLM are similar because they both have cast times.

MCH keeps up 1 buff and 1 DoT, then has a 1-2-3 RNG combo with ammo interaction.
BRD keeps up 1 buff and 2 DoTs, spams heavy shot and relies on procs from DoTs for ogcds.

Maintaining uptime on some buff is par for the course for jobs in this game, that's just their all round homogeneous approach to all classes.

The way I see it the main difference is how they deal with movement - MCH's base rotation (split-slug-clean) is RNG, but they can use ammo and bank ogcds to have guaranteed instant casts when needed, BRD can just spam heavy shot but must rely on RNG for their instants to proc (Straighter Shot/Bloodletter reset).

[RiceisNice]

Is their gameplay similar though?

They're both dps jobs that play reactive to procs, maintain a buff, maintain a debuff, and really not much else differentiation beyond that. When you compare BLM and SMN, they have umbral/astral and aetherflow/aethertrail respectively; both persisting mechanics unique to the job and their base rotation. The most you can get out of BRD/MCH is ammunition, which is practically another oGCD that gets used up without a thought and as soon as it comes up because it's free damage and tp, especially since only two skills that MCH use actually get any additional effect from ammo that isn't the base 20 potency. There's very little turret interaction that it becomes an afterthought until you need to use regen or hypercharge (which is a cooldown and isn't necessarily part of their main gameplay, or is "part of it" as much as ninja poison and FoF is to monk). Of course it also doesn't help that GB/WM are functionally the exact, same abilties, alongside other carbon copies like quick notch/spread shot and Wide volley/Grenado (both of which could've been opted out for an AoE attachment or something)

Even if you were to go by their movement, that shouldn't be their only differentiation. I won't argue that MCH is more motile than BRD, but I don't move that much to begin with unless mechanics call for it anyway, so it becomes less of a defining trait.

I also don't understand why people refer to "banking ogcds" to have abilities to use when they can't stand still...because those oGCDs are going to be used when it comes off cooldown anyway and aren't on the GCD timer.

Having played both jobs, leveling both casters and a DRG, as well as and being anxious about MCH being a new job, the best way I can sum it up is that I'm disappointed that this is the final version of MCH that we got (especially in relation to BRD and how they got slapped with wm) compared to what they had initially previewed with ammunition usage and various attachments.

[Magicmike]

All this talk has me second guessing my first job of bard. Im only lvl 35 and thinking of going something else. I am enjoying this game so much as a nub. But why waste all this time if i get to end game and its the worse job in the universe ( about the equivelant in rl of being a greenhorne under captain keith )
Will it be worth it ???

[enthauptet]

All this talk has me second guessing my first job of bard. Im only lvl 35 and thinking of going something else. I am enjoying this game so much as a nub. But why waste all this time if i get to end game and its the worse job in the universe ( about the equivelant in rl of being a greenhorne under captain keith )
Will it be worth it ???

Well in my current "is this DPS class boring" chart based on what I have leveled bard is slightly more boring than summoner and in between mnk/lnc being the most fun and thm which is the most boring . mnk/lnc ---- smn - brd ---- thm. As always other people may think differently.

One of the nice things about bard, though, is that the glamour game is strong with the unique gearsets and huge weapons.

[Myon88]

I also don't understand why people refer to "banking ogcds" to have abilities to use when they can't stand still...because those oGCDs are going to be used when it comes off cooldown anyway and aren't on the GCD timer.

Having played both jobs, leveling both casters and a DRG, as well as and being anxious about MCH being a new job, the best way I can sum it up is that I'm disappointed that this is the final version of MCH that we got (especially in relation to BRD and how they got slapped with wm) compared to what they had initially previewed with ammunition usage and various attachments.

Banking is probably not quite the right word, but overall MCH's slightly better mobility is a function of two things. More ogcds in general which makes it more likely you will have one up to cover a period where movement is required, and ammo which is a controllable resource.

I do agree that they could do a lot more with ammo system - ammo is basically the MCH shtick. That said I don't think they tried particularly hard to make the MCH extremely distinct, the job exists more to just give someone who wants to play as the battery another aesthetic and gameplay option - if you don't like the court jester aesthetic BRDs have or think they're too DoT reliant, then at least you have MCH as an option.

If the 'support ranged DPS/mana battery' is a clearly defined role they want to have, then it's inevitable that there will eventually be more than one take on the archtype. It feels no different to me than how PLD WAR DRK are basically slightly different ways for you to tank, or BLM SLM are two different takes on casters.

[RiceisNice]

Banking is probably not quite the right word, but overall MCH's slightly better mobility is a function of two things. More ogcds in general which makes it more likely you will have one up to cover a period where movement is required, and ammo which is a controllable resource.

I wouldn't consider ammo "controllable" because you're going to use it as soon as it comes up for dps anyway. oGCDs don't help with "movement" because you're going to be using them as they come off cooldown, regardless of if you're moving or not; My head graze, unless I need it for an interrupt, is going to be used every 25 seconds when it comes up.

I do agree that they could do a lot more with ammo system - ammo is basically the MCH shtick. That said I don't think they tried particularly hard to make the MCH extremely distinct, the job exists more to just give someone who wants to play as the battery another aesthetic and gameplay option - if you don't like the court jester aesthetic BRDs have or think they're too DoT reliant, then at least you have MCH as an option.

It's not so much that they're too DoT reliant, but MCH has to manage a DoT too, and BRDs practically got one button to reapply their DoTs anyway. I've considered DoTs on both jobs to be an afterthought because it's a given to keep them reapplied regardless of your dps job.

If the 'support ranged DPS/mana battery' is a clearly defined role they want to have, then it's inevitable that there will eventually be more than one take on the archtype. It feels no different to me than how PLD WAR DRK are basically slightly different ways for you to tank, or BLM SLM are two different takes on casters.

Again, I'm fine with being the "mana battery" role, but I don't want to be a reskinned BRD. Even when you compare the three tanks or both casters, their dynamics to how they tank/dps is distinctively different from each other (especially in regards to tanks with how they manage their own dps and cooldowns, such as deliverance stances, dork arts mana, all that). If you were to ask most people to compare BRD/MCH, they'd probably say "They play similar to each other", while you can't necessarily say that with BLM or SMN because their base rotations have entirely different mechanics and foundation behind it , as well as more layers added past level 50 (enochian and DWT) to give them more depth (compared to BRD and MCH who get the same toggle-stance at 52, and abilities that do not have much interaction that add onto how the job players, but rather be straight up oGCDs that require the aforementioned stance).

When you try to level up an arcanist and then a thermatruge, you'll feel how distinctively different they are to each other, especially as you level and get past 50. Same with the tanks once you start pushing to maximizing their performance (DPSing)

I agree, it's like giving raid bosses a debuff that only a certain dps job can dispel and calling it supporting.

Such a class would still be necessary and it's counterparts would need that dispel too, doesn't make it a great idea though. This is the BRD and MCH position atm, it's just their button is this dispel disguised as a regen.

I agree with you on their homogenization for sure, the line between them is so wonky it might aswell be called a squiggle.

They've already fallen into this trap with other jobs due to just how good they are. WAR and DRG are practically the "to-go" within their roles anyway because they're just to good at what they're doing (OT in regards to warrior) alongside their unique utilities to pass up (storm's path and disembowel when you consider that you're going to have to have a MCH/BRD in the party). It's fine to have party synergy (like a warrior doing storm's eye so a ninja can opt out of using DE and use AE in it's place), but especially for warrior, their role as the off-tank is practically irreplaceable because of storm's path and off tank dps (which is a separate thing on it's own, since the game's meta requires everyone to be constantly pushing dps). DRG not so much, but you'd be lying if you said that a DRG won't provide more than a MNK/NIN to table.

All this talk has me second guessing my first job of bard. Im only lvl 35 and thinking of going something else. I am enjoying this game so much as a nub. But why waste all this time if i get to end game and its the worse job in the universe ( about the equivelant in rl of being a greenhorne under captain keith )
Will it be worth it ???

What matters is that you enjoy it. As it stands, BRD is fine as it is as far as performance is concerned. Just that some people don't like how BRD plays in comparison to MCH, or just don't like how BRD plays in general. It becomes debatable at 52 because of WM changing how they play, and you won't nesescarly find an alternative to playing a traditional ranged dps (instant cast with auto attacks from range) in this game because they gave that ability to MCH as well. Even tehn, you could just play without wanderer's minuet when you get that far, provided you play your class really well it's not that big of a detriment to skip out on wanderer's minuet on the road to 60.