3.1 MSQ Reaction [SPOILERS]

[Anonymoose]

Nice to meet you btw.

You, too!

Are we actually certain that the Echo was given to the Sahagin elder rather than awoken in him?

Ish ... At the very least, Minfilia and the Sahagin elder jointly assume Elidibus was responsible.
The sahagin's dying words are even, "Curse you Emissary, you said I would be immortal!"

And I have the same question regarding the knights and Thordan: doesn't the Echo have to be granted by either Hydaelyn or Zodiark?

That I'm not sure about at all. I'm just going by the in-game characters' assumptions for now (which could prove to be flawed). Neither the Sahagin elder nor Thordan and his knights show any sign of being touched like Ysayle. They seem to have the same core ability to break down barriers to merge with deiforms, but don't have the weird side effects. I have no idea what to make of it and am just working with what I have until I have something better, lol.

If it's Elidibus granting this power, it doesn't seem to be quite the same. Some theorize that it's because of a difference in Echo between divine loyalties, but I'm waiting until the top layer of theory is proven or refuted before I build a house of cards that doesn't actually have much in it. For all we know, the Echo isn't required to merge man and deiform - it just seems to be based on what Elidibus, Lahabrea, and Nabriales said.

Assuming he can't grant the echo, and merely fostered it in the Sahagin, Are we sure that you need the echo to uh... deiform? If not, only the Archbishop would need the Echo to maintain his free will, the Heaven's guard may have been Tempered to their primal forms, bound by loyalty to their liege, Thordan.

The little biographies of the Heavens' Ward hint that at the very least they tempered Grinnaux.
I don't want to jump to too many conclusions until we know base ones are good, though.

About Nidhogg, interesting that you put it that way, but is this your speculation or is it confirmed anywhere?

I put that together from three pieces. First, Estinien tells Iceheart that Nidhogg has always followed the Eye, but now completely ignores him in favor of Ishgard. Then you've got the fact that Nidhogg rallied ... just everyone. Midgardsormr himself - the father of dragons, king of kings - rose to join in the song. It was much more serious than any of his past marches, or so we've been led to believe. And finally - there's an optional piece of dialogue with Estinien. It's his theory, lol.

Could Nidhogg sense their power? Is that why he did not lead his minions into battle?

Sounds like he's accusing Nidhogg of knowing what's up, being too afraid to come himself, and yet amassing a historic siege.
Hraesvelgr said that the war was always for their spirits as of a thousand years ago. Ask Midgardsormr last week? "Ishgard shall burn."
Makes sense as a starter theory. /shrug

So, in essence, they had no idea what they were actually getting into and that the place not only couldn't be held but was also already under protection by Midgarsormr. That's the long and short of what you're saying if I'm not misunderstanding?

I'm not sure if anyone expected that the mythical Keeper of the Lake - Guardian of the Falls - created by the gods themselves - would actually show up.
Erik even says that the event proved the gods were true in the eyes of many Eorzeans.

As I said in my response to Cilia, the main problem I have with that is that you're forgetting that Gaius is a man who feels that the ends justify the means.

I agree with most of the Gaius points, so I feel it necessary to clarify one thing: I'm not trying to paint him as sympathetic, just better than his peers. He's not devoid of what makes the Garleans horrible, he just has more of what makes them "eh, maybe not entirely wrong". When I try to demonstrate that by pointing to an "honor" that others seem to lack, I'm not talking about, like, King Arthur's honor. I'm talking about... like... mafia honor. Mafias tend to do a whole lot of horrible stuff, but those that keep to the code are generally favorable compared to those who have none. Compare to piracy vs. rogues' guild.

At the very least, the ends didn't justify the means when the annihilation of the primals meant the annihilation of every living thing in Eorzea. He wanted the glory of raising the Imperial standard over a land that had been "saved" and purged of its tainted influences. He looked Nael in the face and called him depraved (despite being powerless to do anything about it and subsequently being mocked for it).

Could you explain that last sentence, actually? Lahabrea *seems* like just a typical Ascian

I can tell you that (it is said) Lahabrea and Elidibus are of our world and the other Ascians are not. I can tell you that (it is said) Lahabrea and Elidibus are "original" and the other Ascians are "transmigrations." Can't tell you what that means, though. I'm guessing they "transmigrated" from "the original genesis" before everything they knew was "shattered", and Lahabrea and Elidibus came from the subsequent mortal world, originally, but "partook of Zodiark's power" and fight to see "what was shattered made whole". Those boundaries are so vague that they could mean anything. To highlight how little we know about it, the Ascians could be from the "Age of the Gods" that was destroyed when Zodiark came to power as the thirteenth, youngest, and most powerful of them due to alignment with Darkness. Alternatively, literally all of that could be wrong. We don't know much.

I really don't see Urianger as being capable of lying to us about anything.

As is the case with my loyalty to the Crystal, I'm not giving up on Urianger just yet. He was Louisoix's most trusted pupil. The other Scions laughed at how naturally he played an enigmatic villain simply because he'd "spent more time with old books than modern people". A guy like him, you don't just let the chance to hear out the Emissary, seemingly aligned with the Ascians, who hasn't been on the mortal plain in thousands of years, pass you by.