So, after the patch, how goes it with Paladin?

[Dhex]

Honestly - once again the biggest problem with the changes is they really don't address the clunky design issues with the Paladin toolkit.

Look at this thread - how many people made posts assuming you'd perfectly get a proc. every 15s and manage to catch Shield Swipe as it comes back off cooldown? Sorry but there is no guarantee of that happening. Even with Sheltron you have to wait for an AA to proc - meaning the appreciable DPS/Enmity gain varies heavily and is, at best, unreliable as a damage boost. The Pacification component is very nearly pointless.

Unfortunately the amount of situational skills Paladin labors under is what causes it to have a lack of utility; and those core problems create a lack-luster Tank when coupled with limited damage capabilities.

Cover is outright useless - it only redirects umitigated physical damage, and I'm going to stress this, the unmitigated damage is only redirected (and can interrupt your casts!) - so healers still have to make sure that damage won't kill you or leave your HP pool vulnerable - it at best allows you to prevent an interrupt on a caster or redirect auto-attacks away from a MT after a Tank buster. The issue here being Paladin is designed with the MT slot in mind as it's supporting functions, such as Clemency, are just too slow to be an effective stop-gap heal, and contribute to further squashing Paladin down the DPS-ladder. Clemency itself is too easily interrupted to be used practically or reliably when in a raid setting where you are target taking frequent damage, and it's MP cost further limits it's utility to two or three casts when you do manage to cast. Many of those casts will be wasted overheal or cause overheal for your healers. Divine Veil is just an AoE shield for everyone to the exception of the Paladin themselves - which again suffers under unnecessary clunk.

Clunk laid out;
Oaths - GCD loss
Cover - Phys./Range/Unmitigated/Redirected Damage = Redirected Heals
Clemency - Interrupts/MP cost/Cast time/Damage loss
Divine Veil - Heal proc/Redundancy/No effect on the Paladin
Shield Swipe - Block proc/Useless additional effect

Sub/Cross-class junk;
CNJ
Cure - Low potency/Redundant (see Clemency)
Stoneskin - Redundant/Cast time
Raise - Non-combat use only
Protect - Redundant

Paladin can limp along for now - but it is not a well designed tank by any measuring stick.

[Brian_]

snip.

In the event that you don't need to save Sheltron or Bulwark for anything specific, it's not that hard to get very good overall usage efficiency with Shield Swipe. You Sheltron on the pull to force one in your opening enmity rotation, you Bulwark to force 2 more Shield Swipe procs, and then you Sheltron again to force the next. If you get a natural block during any of this, you can delay the CDs accordingly. You are also forgetting that with time and better shields, PLD's natural block rate is going to increase. In that manner, Swipe scales better than its equivalents because Reprisal is parry based and parry rating rating has horrible returns + is eating up stat budgeting that could go to crit. Block rate is not costing PLDs stat budgeting on their gear.

Even if you need to save Sheltron based on mechanics, you can easily readjust your overall skill usage around such timings.

Divine Veil is redundant? What does that even mean? It stacks with other shields and is really, really good for mechanic damage. The problem is the up-time is garbage compared to other raid mitigation. At the same time, if it had higher up-time, it would trivialize a lot of mechanic damage. Any time you buff raid mitigation like Divine Veil, you need to do so with content in mind -- and in this case, future content. A party needs to be able to live through mechanic damage. This is part of why AST / WHM groups are not a thing. SCH Adlo + Deploy on a WAR in Defiance with Conva + Sacred Soil is insane raid mitigation. Do you re-scale damage based on the possibility that a group will run PLD for DV, WAR / DRK for Path / Reprisal, MNK for DK, SCH for Adlo + Deploy + Soil + Virus, and just laugh at every single raid-wide damage mechanic while a group with a worse comp gets crushed like an ant? Or, do you scale damage down so that it is survivable regardless of comp and the optimized comps are barely tickled by it?

A lot of other classes also suffer from having largely irrelevant cross-class options. PLD is not alone in that aspect. SS has always been a very good skill. Redundant? Why? Because you expect healers to cast it on you during downtime when they often have more pressing matters to attend to?

[IndigoHawk]

It's not that I'm grumpy. It's that I'm really sick and tired of all these garbage topics with nonsensical, impractical, and stupid suggestions for how a class should be changed based only on personal opinion. These days, it just seems like because they can slap you in the face with a wall of text, they deserve to be heard and noticed. They drown out the good posters with educated opinions based on experience with the hardest content -- players who actually get the most out of the class and are thus most qualified to speak about how they fall short.

So grumpy that you're raging at how the internet works. Haha!

[Brian_]

So grumpy that you're raging at how the internet works. Haha!

As if the internet is a singular entity rather than a cluster of differing communities. If you go to a forum like teamliquid and a pro-gamer or a known high ranking player posts something, people not only pay attention, but their point often dictates the direction of a conversation.

Yes, the internet.

The point is would I like to see PLD improved? Yea. Is the current state of these forums helping accomplish that? Nope.

[Jpec07]

Is the reduced TP cost noticeable?

I'm actually having more TP problems after the patch than before. This is partially because on trash pulls, I would actually use shield swipe to pacify mobs that could do Big Damage, and I can't do that anymore, so I use more TP. The change to Goring Blade is also barely noticeable.

Exactly how has the behavior of Shield Swipe changed?

I actually find myself with fewer opportunities to use Shield Swipe after the patch as well. Most mobs don't hit physically with enough frequency for it to be the full +600 potency per minute that I thought it was going to be, and often it'll just sit there off cooldown for a few seconds before I finally block another attack. This would be alleviated by a buckler-style shield, but those aren't really available as much, unless I'm mistaken.

All in all, the changes feel insubstantial, and as though they may have actually made the job slightly worse.

[Bravely_Default]

With the release of the diadem "stat budgeting" is not a factor. I have already seen pieces of gear on tanks with 5-6 stats with primaries as good as other 210 equipment.

[Dhex]

In the event that you don't need to save Sheltron or Bulwark for anything specific, it's not that hard to get very good overall usage efficiency with Shield Swipe. You Sheltron on the pull to force one in your opening enmity rotation, you Bulwark to force 2 more Shield Swipe procs, and then you Sheltron again to force the next. If you get a natural block during any of this, you can delay the CDs accordingly. You are also forgetting that with time and better shields, PLD's natural block rate is going to increase. In that manner, Swipe scales better than its equivalents because Reprisal is parry based and parry rating rating has horrible returns + is eating up stat budgeting that could go to crit. Block rate is not costing PLDs stat budgeting on their gear.

Utilizing Bulwark does not make Shield Swipe 100% reliable. Shield Swipe being ready for use every 15s is entirely based on RNG proc timing - this is not a debatable point. It's fact. You can, at best, Sheltron proc - wait 10s Bulwark ?RNG? proc (maybe) wait 15s - wait 5s Sheltron or if RNG proc'd wait 15s leave Sheltron alone. Again - without some extreme luck you will never see perfect back-to-back-to-back use of Shield Swipe. It is a very small unreliable gain to potency and damage potential. Additionally I need to stress that Sheltron =/= Instant Shield Swipe as you still have to weather at least one Auto-Attack to activate it. All of this means variation to the potency gains from Shield Swipe. Also you throw away Sheltron as a mitigation tool in any fight where it can be used to mitigate Physical tank-busters by doing this. Yes you can fiddle with cooldown timing but it won't change anything - you can't force luck with procs. Your little argument ignores the key point being made; the damage will vary depending on unreliable proc timing. This is not a reliable change to Paladin damage. This is not a fix.

Arguing about stat budgeting in regards to Shield Block & PLD is utter nonsense since there is nothing else for us to equip in our off-hand slot so thanks for that inconsequential tidbit.

If you want a good reminder of what is wrong with PLD I suggest you try Ramuh EX - this is an example of a fight where Paladin's toolkit is extra useless and it highlights the key deficiencies we labor under.

Divine Veil is redundant? What does that even mean? It stacks with other shields and is really, really good for mechanic damage.

Divine Veil is redundant because there are already two healer Jobs with AoE shields - if a heavy raid-wide buster is coming healers should already be putting out shields and have already determined the amount of AoE healing required to maintain raid health after the mechanic - if they couldn't do it Paladin & Divine Veil would be a 100% necessity to clear the fight. Divine Veil lets the raid "mitigate more" than it could without it but it does not provide such a significant barrier that the required healing is reduced - meaning the same amount of MP and the same number of GCDs are being expended by your Healers to top off the raid. It at best becomes a skill that is 100% situation reliant for use making it impractical when most raid-wide damage is heavily scripted - this makes Divine Veil a dead zone on the hotbar reserved for a very specific emergency. At best you might save a wayward DPS that stepped in something right before a raid-wide attack; of course assuming your healers take time to proc the shield at all. It's a superfluous skill that is a waste to the toolkit at best.

A lot of other classes also suffer from having largely irrelevant cross-class options. PLD is not alone in that aspect. SS has always been a very good skill. Redundant? Why? Because you expect healers to cast it on you during downtime when they often have more pressing matters to attend to?

Stoneskin is 10% of your max HP. Even if you're in full VIT, with food, and a VIT bonus allotment that is still less than a 2,500HP shield. SS is a spell - thus it can be interrupted further wasting GCDs - Clemency also easily outweighs your Stoneskin shield - so the only situation where utilizing Stoneskin is viable is when you're capped HP. Think about the nature of that - because if you're low on HP and have no healer attention then you best be refilling your HP via Clemency (good luck with interrupts) not mitigating what equates to roughly an Auto-Attack. If you are capped HP you already have Healer attention/Regens/Fairy and should be focusing on your damage output and completing the main goal - kill the monster/push the phase. Stoneskin becomes a redundant, even useless, spell. If you're using it to shield other players you're deliberately squashing your own Damage/Enmity output for even smaller inconsequential shields. If you're using it as an OT you're deliberately squashing your own Damage output; which by-in-large is what most raids need from an OT slot.

CNJ contributes nothing practical to a PLD.

[Kosmos992k]

I'm actually having more TP problems after the patch than before. This is partially because on trash pulls, I would actually use shield swipe to pacify mobs that could do Big Damage, and I can't do that anymore, so I use more TP.
...I actually find myself with fewer opportunities to use Shield Swipe after the patch as well. ...often it'll just sit there off cooldown for a few seconds before I finally block another attack.

Yeah, I've noted this as well, now that there is a 15s timer on use, the irregularity of proc'ing it means you can never achieve 4 swipes per minute on a consistent basis. So now it has reduced potency and potentially reduced occurrence since before the change we could still use Sheltron and/or Bulwark to force it. All in all, I can easily see how this change actually ends up using more TP than before and producing less DPS. Which really goes against the stated aim of the change I think.

[Brian_]

snip

It's a reliable increase to PLD damage and while it's a small buff, it's still a step in the right direction. You're basically also saying that crit is a worthless stat because it's RNG when it's the best point for point secondary. Over a 10+ minute fight, you will have a consistent damage contribution from shield swipe that will be quantifiably higher if you make an active effort to increase Swipe's up-time. It might not be the perfect scenario where you get it to proc before the 15 second recast is up every time but it's entirely extra damage because it's oGCD and costs you effectively nothing.

And my point about stat budgeting is only utter nonsense to you because it went straight over your head. If you still haven't realized, our off-hand shares combined stat budgeting with our main-hand. In order for a DRK to have a higher parry rate, they actually need more parry on their gear and that parry comes at the cost of another stat. All a PLD has to do to see their block amount / block rate increase is increase their ilevel because block rate is not linked to secondary stat budgeting. It's like people have totally forgotten how strong block was in 2.5.

I don't know why I would have to go back and try Ramuh EX to experience the issues PLD has. I find that pretty laughable because I farmed the crap out of Ramuh for Markab. The strengths and weaknesses of PLD are apparent enough in current content -- if I want to feel the weakness of PLD, I can just play PLD in A4S.

Your description of Divine Veil sounds like you basically don't do any meaningful end-game progression content and makes me think having this conversation is pointless. Just look at A3S or Thordan EX. There is enough raid-wide mechanic damage that an extra shield is incredibly meaningful because like I said before, it stacks. There are scenarios in progression content where if you do not have enough shielding, people essentially get one shot and succor is not consistent enough and adlo-deploy has a 90s CD. In the early period of A3S progression sluice protean in p4+ was A LOT easier with divine veil. Mass splashes was A LOT easier with divine veil. Having an extra shield to factor into the overall healing rotation during p4+ made a big difference.

Like I said, the only downside is that its long CD means its up-time is horrible and it has a somewhat bothersome activation condition. The meat of the skill itself is hardly "impractical," "superfluous," and "a waste to the toolkit." Just because you fail to use it correctly doesn't mean it sucks.

That same logic applies to SS. Again, the way you describe it makes it sound like you don't do any meaningful progression content and don't try to get the most out of your job. There are openings to cast SS in virtually every fight. It's extra free max HP. This has been true since 2.X. As a PLD, if there is nothing to do because a boss is phasing, can't be targeted, or there is some other scripted down-time, you always want to be casting SS on someone. You can cast it before Hyper Compressed Plasma in A1S (which mattered during week 1 clears) and during jump downtime. In A3S, you can cast it during the gap in man>hand phasing in A3S, before p3, during the gap between p3 and p4, etc. In A4S, you can cast it before Mortal Revolutions. In Thordan EX you have tons of opportunities to cast it during down-time. There are plenty of opportunities to give people extra free temporary max HP without it costing you anything but MP.

[Bravely_Default]

It's only a dps increase short term, FB>SB>RA combo is an average potency of 230. old shield swipe potency was 210. Before they changed it with bulwark, sheltron, and natural blocks you could at times shield swipe 3+ times in a row. I had one instance where I had 7 swipes in a row. the potency may be slightly lower then a RA combo, but the TP cost more then made up for it in the long run. Now I find myself consistently running out of TP in raids where we don't have ninjas even with proper rotation between the RA combo and GB combo. Now this only came into play against physical bosses mind you, magical bosses go slightly better then before since we do have a TP reduction to our DOT combo