So, after the patch, how goes it with Paladin?

[Dhex]

In the event that you don't need to save Sheltron or Bulwark for anything specific, it's not that hard to get very good overall usage efficiency with Shield Swipe. You Sheltron on the pull to force one in your opening enmity rotation, you Bulwark to force 2 more Shield Swipe procs, and then you Sheltron again to force the next. If you get a natural block during any of this, you can delay the CDs accordingly. You are also forgetting that with time and better shields, PLD's natural block rate is going to increase. In that manner, Swipe scales better than its equivalents because Reprisal is parry based and parry rating rating has horrible returns + is eating up stat budgeting that could go to crit. Block rate is not costing PLDs stat budgeting on their gear.

Utilizing Bulwark does not make Shield Swipe 100% reliable. Shield Swipe being ready for use every 15s is entirely based on RNG proc timing - this is not a debatable point. It's fact. You can, at best, Sheltron proc - wait 10s Bulwark ?RNG? proc (maybe) wait 15s - wait 5s Sheltron or if RNG proc'd wait 15s leave Sheltron alone. Again - without some extreme luck you will never see perfect back-to-back-to-back use of Shield Swipe. It is a very small unreliable gain to potency and damage potential. Additionally I need to stress that Sheltron =/= Instant Shield Swipe as you still have to weather at least one Auto-Attack to activate it. All of this means variation to the potency gains from Shield Swipe. Also you throw away Sheltron as a mitigation tool in any fight where it can be used to mitigate Physical tank-busters by doing this. Yes you can fiddle with cooldown timing but it won't change anything - you can't force luck with procs. Your little argument ignores the key point being made; the damage will vary depending on unreliable proc timing. This is not a reliable change to Paladin damage. This is not a fix.

Arguing about stat budgeting in regards to Shield Block & PLD is utter nonsense since there is nothing else for us to equip in our off-hand slot so thanks for that inconsequential tidbit.

If you want a good reminder of what is wrong with PLD I suggest you try Ramuh EX - this is an example of a fight where Paladin's toolkit is extra useless and it highlights the key deficiencies we labor under.

Divine Veil is redundant? What does that even mean? It stacks with other shields and is really, really good for mechanic damage.

Divine Veil is redundant because there are already two healer Jobs with AoE shields - if a heavy raid-wide buster is coming healers should already be putting out shields and have already determined the amount of AoE healing required to maintain raid health after the mechanic - if they couldn't do it Paladin & Divine Veil would be a 100% necessity to clear the fight. Divine Veil lets the raid "mitigate more" than it could without it but it does not provide such a significant barrier that the required healing is reduced - meaning the same amount of MP and the same number of GCDs are being expended by your Healers to top off the raid. It at best becomes a skill that is 100% situation reliant for use making it impractical when most raid-wide damage is heavily scripted - this makes Divine Veil a dead zone on the hotbar reserved for a very specific emergency. At best you might save a wayward DPS that stepped in something right before a raid-wide attack; of course assuming your healers take time to proc the shield at all. It's a superfluous skill that is a waste to the toolkit at best.

A lot of other classes also suffer from having largely irrelevant cross-class options. PLD is not alone in that aspect. SS has always been a very good skill. Redundant? Why? Because you expect healers to cast it on you during downtime when they often have more pressing matters to attend to?

Stoneskin is 10% of your max HP. Even if you're in full VIT, with food, and a VIT bonus allotment that is still less than a 2,500HP shield. SS is a spell - thus it can be interrupted further wasting GCDs - Clemency also easily outweighs your Stoneskin shield - so the only situation where utilizing Stoneskin is viable is when you're capped HP. Think about the nature of that - because if you're low on HP and have no healer attention then you best be refilling your HP via Clemency (good luck with interrupts) not mitigating what equates to roughly an Auto-Attack. If you are capped HP you already have Healer attention/Regens/Fairy and should be focusing on your damage output and completing the main goal - kill the monster/push the phase. Stoneskin becomes a redundant, even useless, spell. If you're using it to shield other players you're deliberately squashing your own Damage/Enmity output for even smaller inconsequential shields. If you're using it as an OT you're deliberately squashing your own Damage output; which by-in-large is what most raids need from an OT slot.

CNJ contributes nothing practical to a PLD.

[Brian_]

snip

It's a reliable increase to PLD damage and while it's a small buff, it's still a step in the right direction. You're basically also saying that crit is a worthless stat because it's RNG when it's the best point for point secondary. Over a 10+ minute fight, you will have a consistent damage contribution from shield swipe that will be quantifiably higher if you make an active effort to increase Swipe's up-time. It might not be the perfect scenario where you get it to proc before the 15 second recast is up every time but it's entirely extra damage because it's oGCD and costs you effectively nothing.

And my point about stat budgeting is only utter nonsense to you because it went straight over your head. If you still haven't realized, our off-hand shares combined stat budgeting with our main-hand. In order for a DRK to have a higher parry rate, they actually need more parry on their gear and that parry comes at the cost of another stat. All a PLD has to do to see their block amount / block rate increase is increase their ilevel because block rate is not linked to secondary stat budgeting. It's like people have totally forgotten how strong block was in 2.5.

I don't know why I would have to go back and try Ramuh EX to experience the issues PLD has. I find that pretty laughable because I farmed the crap out of Ramuh for Markab. The strengths and weaknesses of PLD are apparent enough in current content -- if I want to feel the weakness of PLD, I can just play PLD in A4S.

Your description of Divine Veil sounds like you basically don't do any meaningful end-game progression content and makes me think having this conversation is pointless. Just look at A3S or Thordan EX. There is enough raid-wide mechanic damage that an extra shield is incredibly meaningful because like I said before, it stacks. There are scenarios in progression content where if you do not have enough shielding, people essentially get one shot and succor is not consistent enough and adlo-deploy has a 90s CD. In the early period of A3S progression sluice protean in p4+ was A LOT easier with divine veil. Mass splashes was A LOT easier with divine veil. Having an extra shield to factor into the overall healing rotation during p4+ made a big difference.

Like I said, the only downside is that its long CD means its up-time is horrible and it has a somewhat bothersome activation condition. The meat of the skill itself is hardly "impractical," "superfluous," and "a waste to the toolkit." Just because you fail to use it correctly doesn't mean it sucks.

That same logic applies to SS. Again, the way you describe it makes it sound like you don't do any meaningful progression content and don't try to get the most out of your job. There are openings to cast SS in virtually every fight. It's extra free max HP. This has been true since 2.X. As a PLD, if there is nothing to do because a boss is phasing, can't be targeted, or there is some other scripted down-time, you always want to be casting SS on someone. You can cast it before Hyper Compressed Plasma in A1S (which mattered during week 1 clears) and during jump downtime. In A3S, you can cast it during the gap in man>hand phasing in A3S, before p3, during the gap between p3 and p4, etc. In A4S, you can cast it before Mortal Revolutions. In Thordan EX you have tons of opportunities to cast it during down-time. There are plenty of opportunities to give people extra free temporary max HP without it costing you anything but MP.

[Dhex]

Twaddle.

I cleared FCOB & SCOB before they were nerfed to hell so sorry to disappoint you on that point - been doing Alexander Savage as well. Just because you have a different opinion on the viability of Paladin's utility is no reason to resort to direct personal attacks and making wild assumptions about my personal progression. Pretty sure we're discussing functional issues with Paladin. Not how good I am at Paladin. However you still dodge the facts presented and the issues the Paladin essentially has to work around with it's toolkit with a lot of anecdotal information. Yes, as a Paladin I too have attempted A3S; you can utilize HG to soak the first swipe ideally allowing your melee to continue their positionals and allow healers time to recap MP, and yes you can then Divine Veil between the next two swipes - but once again this is a specific situation in which to utilize the skill - and it does not make Divine Veil needed, good, or seamless. It is not practical skill or a particularly well designed skill. The Healing & MP required during the swipes phase is not drastically changed by having DV up - considering groups clear the A3S swipes without even bringing a Paladin. It works under a very specific set of circumstances - circumstances that don't even necessitate it's use. Divine Veil it is unneeded in general use and is impractical in it's design.

The comment about shields is pointless because Shields are an inherent part of Paladin's itemization. You in one breath say that they are budgeted together but then flounder around in a comparision with Dark Knight as if they're separate. Last time I checked there are only two i210 options for Sword & Board - equalizing XYZ stat on Shield, and only XY on a Sword means your potential XY cap will always be lower than a Greatsword which can only have XY. So what - Dark Knight would have to sacrifice secondaries elsewhere to equalize? Was that your point? I lost it in the pedantic explanation. It's apples to oranges. We (Paladins) avoid parry because it specifically acts as a detriment to the roll-check for damage calculation and potential of blocks. If a Dark Knight wants more Parry - they buy/craft/farm gear with it. End of story. Parry is not good for Paladin, but it is for Dark Knight. The point is moot and to continue arguing from your standpoint about "budgeting" is absolutely asinine

Stoneskin has it's use - down time. Great - what is the point of a 1500(+/-) shield when the damage to the raid is scripted? Additionally if 1500 HP making or breaking a phase/fight for any given role/class is a bad sign in any fight with the size of 3.0's HP pools - if you're failing here it's A) Healer inadequacy. B) Missing the gear metrics by a large margin. C) DPS/Tanks eating excess/avoidable damage.

The way I describe Stoneskin - and all the other problematic skills Paladin has - are to addresses the key deficiencies and draw backs in regards to utility. Divine Veil, and Stoneskin net you an almost inappreciable gain in raid-wide mitigation while crippling your damage contribution - Paladin needs to function. It needs to function well, and it needs to function in OT or MT.


I said it a few posts back - Paladin works and it can limp along for now.

[Brian_]

snip

What "facts" are you talking about? Because I don't see any regarding the points I took issue with.

It's not anecdotal evidence that Shield Swipe adds to your DPS if you use it. How is that anecdotal. You said "this is not a reliable change to Paladin damage." I pointed out that if that's your reasoning, neither is crit. Over a prolonged fight, it is a reliable and consistent increase in PLD DPS.

How is it anecdotal evidence that a shield that stacks with all other mitigation actually helps you mitigate damage. By your logic, Path is also not needed. Delirium / Reprisal are not needed. In that way, PLD's raid mitigation is no longer worse than DRK or WAR because it's all not needed anyways. Makes sense.

Here are some actual facts. Splash is ~2600 damage per splash. Cascade is ~12000 damage. Fluid stike is ~60000 damage split between targets. Divine Veil is ~1700-1900 HP worth of shield. Is that anecdotal mitigation? It mitigates a much larger amount of damage than Path, Delirium, and Reprisal for those abilities. In terms of raid mitigation, DV does a better job. But, LIKE I KEEP SAYING, the issue is the CD and the resulting up-time, not some irrelevant babbling about redundancy, clunk, or how it doesn't shield the PLD. I'm not even saying the ability is fine. I'm just saying that you're completely oblivious to the actual weakness of the ability.

What is the point of a free temporary 10% HP shield? Really? Staying alive as a raid is not only the healer's responsibility. It is everyone's responsibility. That's why you have abilities like Path, Delirium, Reprisal, Dragon Kick, etc. The only difference with PLD is their raid mitigation is activated / casted rather than applied. If you are going to argue that a free shield is not worth it, then applying Path, Delirium, DK, Reprisal, etc. are also not worth it. Your healer just needs to git gud.

How DV costs you damage is beyond my understanding. It has no cast time. And like I said regarding SS, you use it when you cannot deal damage or when the added damage is inconsequential and less important than staying alive.

And, I don't get what is so hard to understand about block.

If a DRK wants to proc Reprisal or Low Blow more, they need more Parry stat. More parry comes at the cost of other secondary stats.

If a PLD wants to proc Shield Swipe more, they will naturally do so as ilevels increase. More block-rate does not come at the cost of other secondary stats.

I didn't think I had to do this but I guess I need to spell out the result -- assuming gear progression and stat valuation is the same as it was in 2.X, 6 months from now DRKs will still have roughly the same proc-rate on Reprisal and Low Blow. Why? Because they will still be stacking Crit and Det instead of Parry. PLDs will have a higher proc-rate on Shield Wipe. Why? Because while they're still stacking Crit and Det, their block-rate naturally increases because of shield ilevel. Is that really so hard to understand?

Now, you're probably wondering why that matters? Well, like I originally pointed out -- Swipe scales better than its equivalents. So, while we might have low up-time based on natural block-rate now, it will change naturally in the future. Like I referenced earlier, it's like everyone forgot 2.X happened.

[Dhex]

What "facts" are you talking about?

Anecdotal in it's meaning - that is to say being based on personal experience. You continually point to your experience in niché settings. Nobody is making the argument that Shield Swipe is not an appreciable DPS gain - it is not however 150 potency every 15s with any sense of reliability as some people are making it out to be. Shield Swipe is a variable amount of potential potency dependant on an unreliable source proc <- this is not a debatable point and will vary on personal experience as we all know there will be "that one guy" out there that claims to always land a Shield Swipe every 15s on cooldown always which is not feasible.

Yes - the higher the shield the more Block Rate - the more you get Shield Swipe procs yadda yadda. Someday - but not right now today. i210 is the highest and that hasn't changed or changed the (im)balance between tanks yet. Hell the potential of Shield Swipe drastically changes depending on shield type; Buckler/Kite/Tower. Still take a look at the stat distributions across a single Sword/Shield combo and you'll see stats are distributed across a wider set of secondaries; to get the absolute best itemization requires an upgraded Esoterics Shield & Gordian weapon whereas Dark Knight only requires an upgraded Deathbringer or a Gordian GS. So again your argument doesn't really hold water with me. Until Shield Swipe somehow closes the gaping chasm of a gap between a Dark Knight's MT DPS and a Paladin's MT DPS then we can start discussing imbalances in itemization and stat budgeting.

Additional points; I never said anything about DV "costing" damage anywhere - only that it potentially can save a DPS that missed being topped off - DV front loads the mitigation and has a ridiculously small effect towards easing healing requirements and overall damage intake for the duration of an encounter. Until there is a mechanic that you literally cannot survive without DV; where no DG Kick/Path/Adlo will ever be enough then it's just a security blanket of "extra" to pad for healers that have trouble timing heals or DPS that make mistakes before raid-wide hits. DV provides a short lull after a raid-wide where a healer might save a single GCD or afford a slower healer with a chance to compensate - though even that is highly unlikely given that it does not so significantly decrease damage that is prevents the Healer expending the same number of GCDs and MP as they would have done if you had not used it at all.

You fail to address the key point in the argument against Stoneskin; if damage is scripted and predictable what is the function of minor reductions to damage that healers are already going to heal through? Think about it like STR vs Excess VIT. Having mitigation like Storm's Path, Delirium, Reprisal allow both WAR & DRK to continue to actively contribute damage while reducing damage intake with minor DPS loss - Stoneskin is outright sacrificing GCDs to achieve a less effective outcome in comparison.

[Brian_]

I normally don't bother with quoting because I trust people to remember what they've said, but this is getting ridiculous.

Even with Sheltron you have to wait for an AA to proc - meaning the appreciable DPS/Enmity gain varies heavily and is, at best, unreliable as a damage boost.

Your little argument ignores the key point being made; the damage will vary depending on unreliable proc timing. This is not a reliable change to Paladin damage.

I was never making the argument that it was 150 potency per 15 seconds. My point was that you can increase the proc rate of shield swipe through proper skill usage and that over the duration of a standard encounter, your DPS gain from shield swipe is going to be consistent and is going to be reliable. It is the same as crit. The damage does not vary heavily and is not unreliable as a damage boost. THOSE ARE THE WORDS YOU USED. Parse yourself using the same rotation on the same encounter 100 times. Then look at the variation in shield swipe DPS contribution. You are not going to see much of a difference.

My point with block-rate scaling is if you are a developer, how something scales greatly influences how you balance it. What do you expect them to do? Make Shield Swipe 300 potency to compensate for the lower block-rates in i210 gear? Then, when people are rocking i300 shields with 100% swipe up-time, they'll have to nerf Shield Swipe or change how block-rating works AGAIN. That's terrible planning.

I never said anything about DV "costing" damage anywhere

Divine Veil, and Stoneskin net you an almost inappreciable gain in raid-wide mitigation while crippling your damage contribution

Sure.

Inappreciable gain = a higher gain than DK, Delirium, Reprisal, Path, etc. on key mechanics. I gave you the numbers. It's not worse for mitigating huge, scripted raid-wide damage. What IS worse is the up-time. It's not the clunk, the face that it doesn't also shield the PLD, the redundancy, or some other BS.

The point I keep making but the point you keep missing, the point you dismiss because it's "anecdotal" when it's ACTUAL REALITY. How about you actually give some real support for your claim that it doesn't impact healers in any way? You dismiss real examples of where you're wrong without any actual factual reply. You just say something and assume it's true.

Look at A3S p2. You have 2 Fluid Strikes 10 seconds apart for 60k split raid damage each. Look at A3S p4+. You have Cascade > You have Sluice Protean 20 something second later > You have Splashes shortly after. You have limited mitigation and very short windows to actually dodge, re-position, and heal. Being able to throw a Divine Veil into the mix helps A LOT. Does it change how a healer deals with incoming damage. YES. Is it necessary? No. But, by that logic, neither is Path, DK, Delirium, or Mantra.

I've had to repeat this numerous times. You have failed to actually prove anything otherwise and just continue to spew unsupported garbage.

The use of SS is nothing like STR vs. VIT because YOU ARE NOT SACRIFICING DPS. For the last time, you use Stone Skin during downtime. How do you lose DPS when you cannot attack the boss? The difference is instead of maintaining it through active upkeep, you cast it during a pause in the fight and it's active until it is used up. If I cast SS on a DPS and they end up taking a 3k damage unavoidable hit, SS just mitigated ~1300 damage. In comparison, if Path was up on the boss, it would've only mitigated effectively 300 damage on said DPS.