3.1 PLD changes look good

[Reynhart]

EDIT: Actually, Square would benefit from making Shield Swipe a no TP, cone AoE, that's on a 15 second cooldown that requires an activation from receiving an attack.

It's called War Drum, and it existed in 1.x as a great way to gather enmity on multiple targets
In fact, it could stay on GCD and still cost TP, since its purpose wouldn't be to gain DPS on a single target, anymore.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

It's called War Drum, and it existed in 1.x as a great way to gather enmity on multiple targets
In fact, it could stay on GCD and still cost TP, since its purpose wouldn't be to gain DPS on a single target, anymore.

Why the fuck would they ever change it LOL. That sounds amazing on paper and in practice.

But yeah, I agree, fuck it, make it cost TP and maybe be put back on GCD if in actual practice it's too too good.
Scratch that, I think what Square is changing it to is a somewhat right move. It's just too much to resist altering to be like my suggestion.

[Blitzace]

Been playing PLD since for ever. Full eso gear. Yet i do not have the slighest problem to out dps it in my lower IL(way way lower) DRK or WAR.
And lets not even begin with the enmity problem. Man just playing WAR every now and then makes me wanna change my main class, which i won't but its tempting as hell.

This does not meaning me(or others) wanting to be best at everything. But at the same time we do not like being worst at everything either.
Would love to see some sort of ability that would give us something of aoe dmg/crowd control cause honestly, flash ain't cutting it(Which is my main issue really)

[Reynhart]

Scratch that, I think what Square is changing it to is a somewhat right move. It's just too much to resist altering to be like my suggestion.

It's a right move if they intend Shield Swipe to be a DPS gain, like it was in 2.x when our most powerful combo was RoH...probably because it was the only one
Now, Shield Swipe could have a totally different purpose, and giving it a 15s cooldown would still result in crap AoE dmg.
The fact that it requires a block already make it worse than Overpower, so, it's not like we'll gain the upper hand on WAR or DRK, anyway.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

It's a right move if they intend Shield Swipe to be a DPS gain, like it was in 2.x when our most powerful combo was RoH...probably because it was the only one
Now, Shield Swipe could have a totally different purpose, and giving it a 15s cooldown would still result in crap AoE dmg.
The fact that it requires a block already make it worse than Overpower, so, it's not like we'll gain the upper hand on WAR or DRK, anyway.

Yeah, I vehemently hate how lazy Square was with this sideways movement on changing Shield Swipe. We're not even marginally better in raid DPS and are somewhat weaker in dungeons because of it now.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Except that Flash can be cross-classed for the "not breaking crowd control" part, and that DA+Dark Passenger gives a better blind, since you only need one application to have a very long duration, thus, not building resistance...and also does damage.

The fact that it has situational uses when cross-classed is supposed to show how it is balanced with the other abilities.
Technically a Paladin's Flash is the better Blind due to having a 21s per 80s (~25%) uptime versus Dark Passenger's 25s/26s per 120s (~21%) uptime. Circle of Scorn is also more dps (10) than Dark Passanger (5 or ~8.3 with DA)

And still, Blind doesn't offer that much mitigation compared to WAR, or even DRK with their DA+Dark Dance, yet our AoE DPS output is ridiculously low

The blind effect is in addition to Bulwark and the ability to freely CC with Shield Bash.

The designers are designing content with a different meta than the AoE dps obsessed meta that NA/EU players are playing in. The designer's intended meta seems to be built around controlling smaller (i.e 1 to 4 target) enemy groups compared to the player developed big group AoE meta which is focused around speed burning 6+ target groups. This case of clashing perspectives is what is giving us a divided perspective on how effective the Paladin is.

[Reynhart]

The fact that it has situational uses when cross-classed is supposed to show how it is balanced with the other abilities.

No, the fact that others can cross-class it means that they have their own (better) AoE skills AND can benefit from some pros of Flash. While PLD only have Flash, even though it's a better one.

Technically a Paladin's Flash is the better Blind due to having a 21s per 80s (~25%) uptime versus Dark Passenger's 25s/26s per 120s (~21%) uptime.

Can you explain those numbers, plz ?

Circle of Scorn is also more dps (10) than Dark Passanger (5 or ~8.3 with DA)

Yes, but Circle Of Scorn is the ONLY damaging AoE for PLD. Dark Passenger is only one of DRK's tools, with Salted Earth, Unleash, and Abyssal Drain...

The blind effect is in addition to Bulwark and the ability to freely CC with Shield Bash.

Blind decreases accuracy. If you want Bulwark to proc, you have to be hit. As for DRK, Dark Arts + Dark Dance increases Evasion. So, those two work better, since hit% is calculated with Accuracy AND Evasion.

The designers are designing content with a different meta than the AoE dps obsessed meta that NA/EU players are playing in.

It's not the NA/EU playerbase that decided to include a whole bunch of adds with Faust, or make A2 a gauntlet style.

The designer's intended meta seems to be built around controlling smaller (i.e 1 to 4 target) enemy groups compared to the player developed big group AoE meta which is focused around speed burning 6+ target groups.

We're not looking at dungeons, when comparing all tanks, they're far too easy to be meaningful. And you clearly don't chain-stun every target in dungeons...by the time you stun the 4th one, they'd be dead anyway.

[Xenosan]

iirc War Drum didn't deal damage, it was just AoE aggro?

I spent all that time in Natalan Wolf pit as WAR for steel cyclone spam.. Cutter Cry the only place I took pld

[Reynhart]

iirc War Drum didn't deal damage, it was just AoE aggro?

Delivers a melee attack with your shield to nearby enemies.
Generates massive enmity. Can only be used immediately after blocking an attack.

We didn't have exact potency numbers in 1.x, but it did damage.

[Ultimatecalibur]

No, the fact that others can cross-class it means that they have their own (better) AoE skills AND can benefit from some pros of Flash. While PLD only have Flash, even though it's a better one.

Which does not mean that the designers balanced the other tanks around having it. (Which makes the fact that they designed fights around requiring provoke more mind boggling)

Can you explain those numbers, plz ?

Resistible status effects durations follow a set pattern: 1st application 100%, 2nd application 50%, 3rd application 25%, 4th+ 0%/Fully Resisted and reset 60s after the last effective application was applied.

Flash applies a 12s Blind which means that you can get a total of 21s (12s + 6s + 3s) duration before being fully resisted. 60s after the 3rd application hits (which was ~18s to 20s in from the first application) the Blind resistance ends meaning that Blind can be reapplied to full effect roughly every 80s. So that gives a 21s per 80s uptime.

Dark Passenger applies a 15s Blind which means it can get a 25s to 26.75s (15s + 7.5 + 3.75 (its hard to tell if a fractional duration is there or if it has been rounded down)) duration before being full resisted. Since Dark Passenger has a 30s cooldown it take 120s before Dark Passenger can reapply Blind for full effect. That gives a 25s per 120s uptime.

Yes, but Circle Of Scorn is the ONLY damaging AoE for PLD. Dark Passenger is only one of DRK's tools, with Salted Earth, Unleash, and Abyssal Drain...

Which combined generates roughly the same amount of enmity as Flash + CoS. This is an example of

Blind decreases accuracy. If you want Bulwark to proc, you have to be hit. As for DRK, Dark Arts + Dark Dance increases Evasion. So, those two work better, since hit% is calculated with Accuracy AND Evasion.

If a Dark Knight wants to stack DA + DP and DA + DD they need to expend a lot of MP and it may not have the same average mitigation benefit as a Paladin stacking Blind and Bulwark.

It's not the NA/EU playerbase that decided to include a whole bunch of adds with Faust, or make A2 a gauntlet style.

But the NA/EU playerbase did decide what strats they would use.

Faust is a single target DpS check and the adds do not need to be killed just tanked away from the group. Flash's non-damage is not really a deficiency there.

The Hardminds/Hardhelms of A2S seem to have been intended to be mechanisms to reduce the viability of stack and burn strategies, but groups figured out ways of getting around their debuffs.

We're not looking at dungeons, when comparing all tanks, they're far too easy to be meaningful. And you clearly don't chain-stun every target in dungeons...by the time you stun the 4th one, they'd be dead anyway.

That is because it is far to easy to over gear the pre-3.1 non-raid content by a good 20 to 30 ilevels around patch release.

The designers try to balance classes around all tiers of content not just raids and they tune the numbers for around the ilevel of the rewards and difficulty around the expected skill level of those doing the content.