Roles need to be changed to better reflect the game.

[FaileExperiment]

The greatest mistake they ever made in this game was to cave to pressure from BRDs who wanted to DPS instead of buff. Their whining and SE response is what created the toxic community today.

I would disagree and say that the mistake was not having a ranged physical full DPS class (ranger?) launch alongside BRD. Then they could have kept BRD to be whatever they wanted. MCH kind of fills that role now, but it's guns and not bow, so still not really. It was so strange that this classic role went ignored for so long, and by all rights is still not fulfilled, as MCH isn't a full DPS class either.

[Loki]

Not all healers have a pet that follows them around and does the majority of the healing. Just saiyan.

>.> you are playing with words and i have taken scholar as example cause it's my main but heal/dps works for whm and ast too.....just saiyan.

The game gives us some dps skills so why we shouldn't use it.

[Gamer3427]

The greatest mistake they ever made in this game was to cave to pressure from BRDs who wanted to DPS instead of buff. Their whining and SE response is what created the toxic community today.

You know. I don't like arguments about BRD and MCH being support being why they were built around lower DPS. Yes they can regen TP or MP, and it can buff damage, but if you look at the sheer number of "support" effects it can activate at the same time, then other classes should be considered support. For the purposes of comparison, we're only counting support as skills that directly benefit the party, and not counting stun/silence since that's an interrupt and many classes have one or the other if not both....

BRD

1) Swiftsong
2) Mage's Ballad
3) Foe Requiem
4) Army's Paean

51-60
5) Wanderer's Paean

Cross Class
6) Mantra
7) Feint

Seven support skills look good, until you consider that one of them can't be used in fights, and three of them are mutually exclusive. The total is brought down to four when you consider the number of support skills that can be active at any one time, with two of those being cross class. Having one of those skills active also reduces the BRD's already low damage by 15%....

MCH

1 and 2) Promotion (TP or MP Regen)
3) Dismantle
4) Rend Mind
5 and 6) Hypercharge (Physical or Magical Damage Buff)

Cross Class
7) Feint

Again, seven. However, this time it's even worse off than BRD in that three skills are mutually exclusive with other skills, bringing the number down to 4 immediately. Then take in consideration that using Promotion and Hypercharge at the same time either removes the debuff from Hypercharge, (in order to increase Promotion's regen rate), or has to have Promotion used when Hypercharge's debuff is nearly over in order to prevent from wasting part of Hypercharge's effect. This effectively brings the number of support skills that can be activated at once down to 3 for MCH, with one being cross class. Again, MCH also loses damage in the form of the turret not attacking if Promotion is active.....

Now, let's take NIN for example....

NIN

1) Goad
2) Dancing Edge (Slashing Damage Buff)
3) Trick Attack (Damage Buff)

51-60
4) Smokescreen
5) Shadewalker

Cross Class
6) Mantra
7) Feint

Well, that's odd. NIN has 7 support skills as well? But it's a DPS class, not a support/DPS. Furthermore, note that none of these skills are mutually exclusive from one another, (the closest is Dancing Edge not working with a WAR skill), nor do any of them decrease the NIN's damage. Beyond even that, Dancing Edge is a damage buff that NIN can keep up indefinitely for as long as the enemy is alive, increasing the damage done by NIN, WAR, DRK, and PLD. The closest MCH has lasts for about 25s total and only buff's either physical or magical damage by 5%, (again being mutually exclusive as to which). BRD on the other hand can buff magic damage by 10%, (considerably more over all in the long run, to be fair), but has a finite duration due to MP, and prevents the BRD from regerating MP or TP for the party. To further this, NIN's two direct damage buffs are active attacks as well.....

I'm fully aware that more than likely the reason BRD and MCH are considered "support" is because they can provide consistent MP/TP regeneration, as well as BRD being able to provide a consistent damage buff for casters. It does seem to me though that if you're counting attacks that provide some amount of "support" to the party, skills other than just MP/TP should be taken into account. NIN has a consistent damage buff, a TP regen skill, aggro adjustment skills, another overall damage buff, as well as increased party healing and decreased enemy attack rate from the cross class skills. The point I'm trying to make here is that arguments that "BRD should focus on buffing instead of DPS" is kind of moot when we have other classes that can consistently buff and DPS simultaneously while having higher base damage than BRD or MCH. I didn't even talk about the support skills other classes have such as DRG's Disembowl, (Dancing Edge but for piercing damage), or SMN's Virus and Eye for an Eye....

I'm not one of those people who complains about "low DPS" from MCH and BRD. As a MCH, I consistently find myself out DPSing the random players I meet in the DF, simply because they aren't as skilled/not trying with their class. I'm just saying that all the arguments about the damage potential from them being unnecessarily low compared to other classes are actually quite founded.....

[Zumi]

Didn't they just say they were going to do away with the Tanks must do high dps situation in 3.2

[Ksenia]

I find role matters in the early guildhests. They just don't get done after obligated and first time bonus is gone. They really need to do a loot tree for them so people have a reason to do them.

[Zojha]

The game gives us some dps skills so why we shouldn't use it.

The game gives us knockback skills. Everyone rages if you use them ._.'

I call unfair!

[Priya]

Agreed OP. All classes in this game are DPS. I absolutely hate that my healing is secondary to my DPS. In silly 4 mans it's okay because those are simple and mobs don't hit hard, so healer DPS is perfectly fine to avoid standing around doing nothing.

Raiding should really put more emphasis on player roles, however. Goofing off in 4 mans by maximizing my DPS is fine, but in a raid I want to be challenged with healing tasks. Give me more constant damage to heal, and some busters on my tanks, and some interesting raid cooldowns to coordinate with my healing buddy's and I'll be a happy camper.

I've quit raiding. I'm just not interested in a raiding endgame that blurrs the trinity instead of emphasizing it.

[Delily]

The trinity is kind of archaic. The biggest problem this game was compromising on support characters. FFXI did it right. FFXIV still can't decide the game it wants to be.

People calling the trinity archaic do not understand online game design or group organization. The trinity is the easiest way for developers to communicate the design and role of a given class. It's the easiest way to categorize classes so that when either people or systems are building group to clear content, it eliminates the paradox of choice of give people a set of solid options.

FFXIV has a clear identity, it's a raiding MMO. It has a few classes that have extremely well defined roles. It eschews traditional means of support for good reasons. Either you need to bring a support character with you (ala bard in FFXI) or you can replace them with another damage class and clear content faster.

FFXI was also a raiding game, but it had a plethora of classes that had no clear design and became niched to particular areas of the game that changed as the game was updated. The classic example is the ninja , who was intended to be a pure damage class, but was turned into a tank class. Sure that sounds fun from the player perspective, but from a developer perspective, it adds unneeded complexity to balance.

[Tilgung]

FFXI did it right.

You mean that game where you only needed 1 healer, 1 bard, 1 corsair, 2 samurai and a thief for every ounce of content?

Well, replace the thief with another samurai in the second and third party if an alliance is actually 'required'.

[Tilgung]

Didn't they just say they were going to do away with the Tanks must do high dps situation in 3.2

No, they said they were adjusting tanks damage formula. It doesn't necessarily mean a nerf of any kind. And it'd be a really bad idea because tank DPS is still needed to clear A3S/A4S.