Roles need to be changed to better reflect the game.

[Magis]

Well...people were saying the trinity is archaic.

Now we have nuanced unity. We're all DPS before yoshida.

Trinity was described wrong; it was Tanks, Damage Dealers, and Support (iirc, according to the original EQ lead dev). Healers fell under support, so if you want to split em it was four class types.

FFXIV of course mashed support into all the DD and Healer classes making weird hybrids like bard which ran into issues of players wanting to DD but not Buff.

Like OP said, seems they are streamlining the game even more. Might as well just have all DPS that have a minor "role" if you want to dumb the game down that far.

[SonKevin]

weird hybrids like bard which ran into issues of players wanting to DD but not Buff.

The greatest mistake they ever made in this game was to cave to pressure from BRDs who wanted to DPS instead of buff. Their whining and SE response is what created the toxic community today.

[Kuwagami]

But here's the thing: Look at the people complaining 'it puts tanks and healers under undue duress' 'it's stressful to have to dps' etc. etc.

What's more stressful, really? Pushing a couple extra buttons to toss out some quick DPS, where if you screw up, or even don't do it, outside of the hardest current raids no one actually gives a shit nine out of ten times, or having to constantly spam your heals while maintaining mana while the tank is constantly on the verge of death? I've done both at various points from 1-50 (particularly memorable was the tank who accidentally pulled about half of the swamp in brayflox normal), and the heal spamming is a hell of a lot more stressful. What's more stressful as a Pld? Those levels between 30 and 40 when you don't have shield oath yet and have to struggle to for every little ounce of aggro, or hitting sword stance on the rafflesia knock off in Sohm Al during the phases when he's not hitting you anyway (read: almost the entire fight).

These people are complaining about the STRESS that DPSing gives them. You really think they aren't going to be on here whining about the much much much higher stress levels that come with actually having to spam cure 2/using every damage CD perfectly NOT FOR DAMAGE but just to try and keep their aggro up?

Really? That's a thing you think?

the way I see it (as in, me, myself, all alone. My opinion), I feel that the meta puts me under stress because of the other players. They expect me to dps. they expect me to pull of XX numbers, or even without a parser on, to do XX thing at YY time because "that's the way you should do it, git gud scrub". I like to dps when I feel like it. Not when I'm forced to do it. To put it simply : I loved when in coil I could drop tank stance and waltz around with berserk. I still like it, even. Alexander normal, while a joke and total faceroll, was still fun because I had the possibility to decide "fuck it, I go dps mode to burn phis phase faster" just like I could do it in coil.

Alexander Savage, however, is more towards the "dps is your one and only way to do anything meaningful". I didn't mind against Faust, I didn't mind vs oppressor pre-split (nothing to tank anyway), but I don't like to be forced to do it after split (to the point I would go in tank stance only to eat the plasma because the game forces me to do it). I hate to be forced to do it in AS2 for nearly the entirety of the run (tank stance only while I have 2 dolls and for the last 2 waves. What a joke). I hated it even more in AS3 for as little as I tried it (full time dps herp derp).

But I did it. Because I was expected to do it, forced to do it. And this was stressing me. Not because I could dps, but because I had to dps, and was expected to meet a certain dps ceiling not to be called out as bad. I chose tank.. to tank, basically. Not to be an other dps.

So I agree, I don't think people who find dps'ing stressful as tanks or healer (as in, they find it stressful to dps when they have the possibility) would appreciate a full-time healing or tanking job. However, people like me who find it stressful to be forced to perform optimally what should be a sub-job for us, to the point where this sub-job totally outshines what we should be doing instead would be just fine. We just want to perform great at our job and every now and then throw that extra bit of dps because we can. Not because it's required.

(of course this only applies if your group meet the expected gear requirement for the duty. If you're under, the extra dps will still be needed)

The greatest mistake they ever made in this game was to cave to pressure from BRDs who wanted to DPS instead of buff. Their whining and SE response is what created the toxic community today.

Nah. SE said from the start that they wouldn't implement true support jobs in FFxiv. Supposedly too hard for the players (duh, really ? Do we sound THAT dumb for you ?) and not attractive enough to fill in the DF spots.

[Harlow]

The greatest mistake they ever made in this game was to cave to pressure from BRDs who wanted to DPS instead of buff.

If we're going with this angle I'd say making Archer into Bard when they introduced jobs in the first place was kind of the cause of this since people were hoping for more of a ranger at the time any way. Not many people expected to go from shooting arrows to singing songs. A pure music-based job for Bard would have probably been pretty cool but there's not much that could be done about this now.

[KingOfAbyss]

But if you make DPS a central feature of the jobs then you might find a trend of 'Well if I have to DPS then I might as well be a bloody DPS'
Where will our queue times be when a much larger percentage of the population is DPS?

But what of the person who hates DPSing so they play a PLD - they position perfectly, they hold the hate, they dodge the things, they mitigate like a pro... but if they are being told they are not good enough because of their DPS? Then why should they even bother? (Could this be one of the reasons the Alex clear numbers are 'so low')

Yup, all you said makes sense, at least to me. It's the first game I ever touched a Tank role, feeling forced to do it else suck it up to 30+ min queues.

Now, I know it gets boring to mash 1-2-3 Rage of Halone, so some people asked to get more action.. SE delivered, but then again, I feel it's the last endgame instance that needs a rework, so DPS from any other type than DPS, should be a bonus, not a requirement.

/applause

*waiting for my GF to get 60 this week, then geared up to get into Alex Normal **won't touch SAVAGE mode at all

[Kosmos992k]

Tank ---> DPS that can take hits
Healer ---> DPS that can heal
DPS ---> DPS that can't meet DPS checks without the other two roles DPSing

I know the names are long, but I think it would completely help people understand the horrible abomination that this game created in regards to roles. I know now that I will never be a tank and I know now a healer will never be allowed to be a healer. They must DPS. They must....

Well, I know what you're saying, but personally, I think the fact that the End-game 'meta' of everyone DPS their asses off has acted like a virus and infected the rest of the game. In actuality, if people played their actual roles, in other words, Tanks tank, healers heal and DPS kill things, then the dungeons pass almost as quickly, and moreso as people actually learn to play to each other's strengths. Alas the current situation has big talking DPS players and self appointed end-game gurus demanding that Tanks all wear STR accessories and avoid VIT like the plague, along with demanding that healers heal in Cleric Stance so that their DPS is boosted, etc....

That nonsense doesn't belong in the regular content of the game at all, in the end it really is something that currently matters in the Savage mode of Alexander, but very little else. And that is a good thing because if this game turns into nothing but a DPS pissing contest, there will be even fewer tanks and healers around. Honestly if all people want to see are big damage numbers and don't care about roles or classes, they might be better off playing a game that explicitly caters to that.

Yoshi seems to understand that there is an issue, and in a couple of recent interviews & other comments there have been many hints at making things a bit better. But, as long as very loud voices are addicted to large damage numbers and speed at the expense of all else, that damned 'DPS meta-game' will continue to thrive in the minds of many.

[Khyan]

I still find it mind-boggling that people assume tanks and healers HAVE to dps. They don't.
It's only required if you want to clear content earlier than intended OR if you have to make up for dps not fullfilling their role.
When AS came out, everyone ran off with ilvl180-190, wondering why they couldn't meet enrage timers. Instead of stopping to think and realizing that MAYBE that's working as intented, as in, this content was never supposed to be cleared until people got better gear and learned to play their classes to their full potential, everyone just turned tanks and healers into dps to meet dps checks that were never meant to be cleared that way....and then proceeded to complain to SE that tanks and healers "have to" dps to clear AS...

If it wasn't intended to clear a content just after its release, it's totally pointless to have it, then. The content is here for a purpose : to beat it.

[Kosmos992k]

If it wasn't intended to clear a content just after its release, it's totally pointless to have it, then. The content is here for a purpose : to beat it.

Great, for world first groups and those competing for world firsts, sure. However, for the regular 'rank and file' players, it's nonsense and in fact harms their ability to perform their role in content were actually playing your role is more important than dpsing your ass off.

[whiskeybravo]

But if you make DPS a central feature of the jobs then you might find a trend of 'Well if I have to DPS then I might as well be a bloody DPS'

I can only speak for myself, but this is exactly what I did. I was WAR main for second coil and final coil, and figured I'd be WAR main for Alex savage. After failing the first week of release on Faust, I realized what was expected.. Either spend millions on crafted or get all the str accessories and rely on healers to carry my squishy ass.. I decided to finish leveling DRG, saved up for eso weapon while I did that and went back to running DRG with relative success (final phase a3s before static split). I probably wouldn't have got that far if I remained WAR because I wasn't really willing to gut my survivability as a tank.

But that was exactly my thought, "If all I'm going to do is DPS then I might as well be a damn DPS".

[Seryl199]

Great, for world first groups and those competing for world firsts, sure. However, for the regular 'rank and file' players, it's nonsense and in fact harms their ability to perform their role in content were actually playing your role is more important than dpsing your ass off.

Then what's the next step? Take away their DPS? Lower the skill ceiling so that the better players can only be have so much impact over a less skilled player? This doesn't do anything but tick off the good players, and gives the bad players less room to improve. I don't know what to tell you, the only way to get players off their numbers is to design content and mechanics in a way that encourages cooperation and survivability over damage. Healer DPS is a great tool, but when it's the most desired aspect of a healer's kit, something's up.